New Jecklin Float QA !!!

[analogsurviver]

Quote:

@ Complin : thanks for the recommendations on Mahler 2nd Hope that the situation concerning the QA of the new Jecklin Float will be easily solved
 
@Analogsurviver : thanks for the recommendation for the Giulini 's Mahler 9th I don't know that this recording is binaural, or else I would have one. But it is very pricey. I only have Mahler 9th by Zinman, Chailly (both are SACD's), Rattle, Barbirolli, Gielen and Bertini, Bernstein (LP). It seems that I prefer Rattle's 9th, I may add Giulini 's later.
 
I read a thread by LFF and Jude concerning Binaural recordings. I have ordered limited number of  CD's because they were quite expensive and am looking forward for those records.
Strauss : Also Sprach Zarathustra and Saint SaensSymphony 3 by Mester
Stravinsky : The Rite of Spring  , Rachmaninoff : Symphonic dances , again by Mester
I can report more when I have those.  (Also the Binaural recording by Can)

I did not have official confirmation Giulini's being binaural recording until I got Sennheiser/DGG demo LP recorded with Neumann Kunstkopf  (exact model # eludes my memory at the moment ) off ebay couple of years ago. I obviously misplaced said LP, as I can not locate it at the moment - not in my Technical Test dept - which means it can be all over the place, as there are many composers represented on it.
 
Giulini Mahler 9 always did sound better on phones than on speakers - from day one, and you can perhaps get a CD version at reasonable price somewhere.
 
Nice to see some binaural recordings I am not yet familiar with. Thank you for that.

 

[kiertijai]

is the binaural recording Giulini Mahler 9th reissue in 2007, is the 1994 version also binaural recording? How's about the 2004 version Giulini Mahler 9th + Schubert 8th?

 

[analogsurviver]

Quote:

is the binaural recording Giulini Mahler 9th reissue in 2007, is the 1994 version also binaural recording? How's about the 2004 version Giulini Mahler 9th + Schubert 8th?

No idea about reissues and 1994 version, or 2004 - but most likely not binaural. The reason is that binaural sounds rather thin and unnatural on speakers - problem not easily solved and only recently did Chesky records decide to issue binaural recordings, 5 or so years back they were quite outspoken against recording binaural on their site; appearently now they did suceed in making binaural sounding over speaker acceptable enough, it was a prerequisite before issuing any binaural recordings on their label.
 
Like it or not, most people prefer listening to music over speakers as opposed to headphones. For that reason alone, binaural is forever likely to remain a niche format/product, aimed at a very select customers who are willing and able to support it and high(er) costs that go hand in hand with the facts of life. Deutsche Gramophon does not even mention which recordings were made in binaural, they have simply amalgated them into their catalogue(s) on merit of artists recorded alone.  Smaller companies specializing in audiophille or even binaural unfortunately rarely have the access to record top artists -  forming vicious circle, storia mai finita.
 
I regularly record in both binaural and "something" for speakers, most often Jecklin OSS or popularly Jecklin Disk. The only issued CD with binaural so far is setting of Slovene folk songs by composer Ambroz Copi ( correctly written Ambrož Čopi, but do not know what troubles might/may those signs create on English "speaking" computers ... ) by female choir CarniCe ( correctly - ČarniCe ) under the baton of Stojan Kuret. It also has "translation" of binaural of the same programme for speakers, which I guess is the world's first a recording is  presented in this way.
 
https://sites.google.com/site/carnicevokalnaskupina/about-us
 
A couple of binaural mp3 clips are downloadable : 
 
https://sites.google.com/site/carnicevokalnaskupina/diskografija

 

[kiertijai]

I searched amazon.co.uk and found there are 3 CD's of Mahler 9 Giulini,  one set of LP
Mahler 9 + Schubert 8

 
 
This one is 1994 version, cheapest but probably not binaural recording

 
 
This one is the most expensive one, the reissue 2007 from Japan cost 92.8 GBP
If this is the one,  I need to search somewhere else : amazon.de, amazon.co.jp or
ebay as it costs a fortune

 

[kiertijai]

There is also a good value boxset of Giulini but there is no Mahler 9

There is another Giulini Mahler 9 on DG

 
 
 
Seems like LP is the safe choice in term of cost and binaural recording.
However I decided to stop using vinyl some time ago when my son and my niece
played with my phono cartridge and destroyed it.  If it was Zyx or Dynavector I would
have a heart attack.  I may go to vinyl soon now he is in college.

 

[arnaud]

Binaural playback through speakers makes no sense and will sound horrible, one of the reasons beings the crosstalk from each speaker to both ears and the other one being a doubling of head and torso effects. AFAIK, Chesky is now issuing binaural versions alongside the stereo versions, you're not supposed to listen to the binaural version with speakers.

BTW, you'll have the same issue as speakers with a float or K1000 since they both have more bleed into both ears than more traditional headphones.

But of course, I could be wrong, so correct me if not right.

 

[analogsurviver]

Quote:

I searched amazon.co.uk and found there are 3 CD's of Mahler 9 Giulini,  one set of LP
Mahler 9 + Schubert 8

 
 
This one is 1994 version, cheapest but probably not binaural recording

 
 
This one is the most expensive one, the reissue 2007 from Japan cost 92.8 GBP
If this is the one,  I need to search somewhere else : amazon.de, amazon.co.jp or
ebay as it costs a fortune

The one with the hat is the binaural recording - you should listen to Janis Joplin a bit more, particularly  song Try...just a little bit harder :
 
http://www.ebay.de/sch/i.html?_trksid=p3984.m570.l1313&_nkw=Mahler+9+Giulini&_sacat=0&_from=R40
 
Act quickly, hope you get it at reasonable cost ! I suggest LP, if your turntable is at least the shadow of your phones.

 

[analogsurviver]

Quote:

There is also a good value boxset of Giulini but there is no Mahler 9

There is another Giulini Mahler 9 on DG

 
 
 
Seems like LP is the safe choice in term of cost and binaural recording.
However I decided to stop using vinyl some time ago when my son and my niece
played with my phono cartridge and destroyed it.  If it was Zyx or Dynavector I would
have a heart attack.  I may go to vinyl soon now he is in college.

Ah well, I know the blues regarding expensive cartridges and children grown enough to reach them!
 
Been there at one point in my life - and decided to do something about it. Analog turntable can be made user friendly to the point it is useable by any person who knows how to properly hold the record, with very little chance of destroying a stylus, even if it is nude/naked Grasshopper or Colibri. But it will never ever be a toy.
 
There is a fly in that ointment - such turntable stops being a toy / endless tweak playground to its Master/Owner too. 

 

[kiertijai]

@analogsurviver : thanks for the link
so the CD with Mahler 9 + Schubert 8 is also binaural recording for Mahler 9, that should be easier to find
 
@Arnaud : thanks  ,  I will be careful and evaluate that with my other neutral phone
 
 
 
When my son and my niece played,  I means they really played
I don't think even the modern day stylus  can handle that.
They moved the phonocartridge up and down vertically and slammed it to the table.
I don't think education at that age would help much.  Of course I would not spank my son
not even to think about  doing that to my niece
 
 
I plan to use Rega Planar 9 + RB1000 tone arm + Esoteric DIN to RCA + Dynavector 17D3  or Transfiguration temper W
I was informed from a friend that it should not be hard to setup and use.
 
 
Here is the link that I mentioned about
http://www.binaural.com/binfaq.html    website concerning general knowledge, binaural recordings
and how to order them but I could not get it done from Thailand
 
 
Here is the link of LFF that I got the name of some awsome binaural recordings
http://www.head-fi.org/t/511850/awesome-binaural-albums

 

[analogsurviver]

Quote:

Binaural playback through speakers makes no sense and will sound horrible, one of the reasons beings the crosstalk from each speaker to both ears and the other one being a doubling of head and torso effects. AFAIK, Chesky is now issuing binaural versions alongside the stereo versions, you're not supposed to listen to the binaural version with speakers.
BTW, you'll have the same issue as speakers with a float or K1000 since they both have more bleed into both ears than more traditional headphones.
But of course, I could be wrong, so correct me if not right.

Well, binaural playback through speakers does make sense and will not sound horrible - if one takes the measures required regarding crosstalk ( and maybe some EQ ) .  Currently no commercially available devices for this purpose, at least to my knowledge, the ones now ( long )  discontinued did have teething troubles, but not inherent principle flaws. Binaural recording, properly "translated for speakers", can under favourable conditions meet or exceed other  recording techniques intended for reproduction over speakers..
 
I think you are wrong regarding binaural and Float or K 1000.  The lack of bleed between the ears in any headphone using earpads is the main reason why headphones image improperly - and the raison d'etre of various crosfeed solutions for headphones, be it hardware or software based. Crosfeed for headphones with earpads (and IEMs ) tries to achieve the natural bleed between the ears - something Float, and, even better, K 1000, achieve naturally, through proper design which takes into consideration the nature of human hearing. Providing for natural crossfeed/bleed  between the ears is in my opinion far more important than say really extended low frequency response made possible by the use of pads.

 

[analogsurviver]

Quote:

@analogsurviver : thanks for the link
so the CD with Mahler 9 + Schubert 8 is also binaural recording for Mahler 9, that should be easier to find
 
@Arnaud : thanks  ,  I will be careful and evaluate that with my other neutral phone
 
 
 
When my son and my niece played,  I means they really played
I don't think even the modern day stylus  can handle that.
They moved the phonocartridge up and down vertically and slammed it to the table.
I don't think education at that age would help much.  Of course I would not spank my son
not even to think about  doing that to my niece
 
 
I plan to use Rega Planar 9 + RB1000 tone arm + Esoteric DIN to RCA + Dynavector 17D3  or Transfiguration temper W
I was informed from a friend that it should not be hard to setup and use.
 
 
Here is the link that I mentioned about
http://www.binaural.com/binfaq.html    website concerning general knowledge, binaural recordings
and how to order them but I could not get it done from Thailand
 
 
Here is the link of LFF that I got the name of some awsome binaural recordings
http://www.head-fi.org/t/511850/awesome-binaural-albums

The kind of turntable abuse described is of course "unsurvivable crash". The only solution in such case is making the turntable inacessible, as children may well not be able to understand why punishment for destroying an expensive cartridge, whatever it might be, is so severe. 
 
Rega is a great sounding table - I would suggest Planar 7 + RB 1000 + 17D3. I heard Planar 7 and preferred it to the 9  -  it seems the 9 being "research" and 7 "development". I would strongly suggest getting some kind of VTA ( Vertical Tracking Angle ) device to go with RB arms, since Micro Line/Scanner/Ridge/Reach
stylus such as the one on 17D3 is VERY sensitive to VTA and "one size fits all" solution of stock RBs just will not do.  One tip regarding Dynavector Karat series - try to keep the records scrupolously dust free - the design "sucks" dust particles exactly into gap between the pole yoke and cantilever, eventually causing clogging with reduced performance or even failure due to pinching wire(s) producing open coil. Unbelievable as it may sound, it is far easier to keep Karats clean without its protective "body"; at least dust can be blown away with compressed air ( for camera lenses, NEVER blow yourself to ""clean" it, basically you are spitting on it that way ).
 
Thank you for the binaural links. The turntable makers and binaural recording sellers must certainly be looking forward to us ...

 

[arnaud]

We've there before but anyhow:
- A binaural mix for speakers is something very different and shouldn't be used with headphones. Think QSound, dipole speakers with DSP (ISVR research and I think a lab in the US trying to market the same thing but claiming its all original research)
- Binaural playback using a phone that already uses head effects (K1000 especially, float to a lesser extent) will lead to doubling of head effects (once through the recording head and again through the "earspeaker").

I agree though that the float is not that different from a circumeral open phone and both have much less LR bleed than any speakers and both use pinna reflections so a binaural mix in any case needs to get the pinna (and ear canal if the mic was set deep) equalized out for playback with any phone...

BTW, all those interesting recordings you mention are LP? There's no way to get them in redbook or other digital format?

 

[analogsurviver]

Quote:

We've there before but anyhow:
- A binaural mix for speakers is something very different and shouldn't be used with headphones. Think QSound, dipole speakers with DSP (ISVR research and I think a lab in the US trying to market the same thing but claiming its all original research)
- Binaural playback using a phone that already uses head effects (K1000 especially, float to a lesser extent) will lead to doubling of head effects (once through the recording head and again through the "earspeaker").
I agree though that the float is not that different from a circumeral open phone and both have much less LR bleed than any speakers and both use pinna reflections so a binaural mix in any case needs to get the pinna (and ear canal if the mic was set deep) equalized out for playback with any phone...
BTW, all those interesting recordings you mention are LP? There's no way to get them in redbook or other digital format?

It has been a looong day ( 2 AM here ), so only the LP question answered.
 
Binaural needs any/every phase information it can get in order to be sucessful - NOT something RBCD supports, with its brick wall filtering above 20 kHz. DSD with a sampling of 2,8 MHz ( SACD ) is much better in this regard, but still not enough; the first thing I found to do binaural justice, besides top analog, is double DSD at 5,6 MHz sampling. Unfortunately, I am not aware of any SACD, let alone double DSD binaural recordings being commercially available.
 
To be brutally honest - playing back vinyl records well enough to supress all the unwanted facts of vinyl to the point it is no longer objectionable to the listener used to RBCD on headphones is hard, extremely hard and therefore costly. The greatest troublemaker is the rumble of the vynil pressing itself - here even the perfect turntable ( if it existed ) can not do much about it. 
 
I am working round the clock on better "turntable"/recorder/headphones/speakers, all in order to be able to record good vynil in double DSD well enough to allow for records/recordings during "turntable" development. Once I will be satisfied with the results, I might post some of them - but on what equipment you will play them in order to do them justice? Besides Korg DSD recorders, there are very few devices capable of DSD playback in the home, Mytek 192/24/DSD "DAC" comes to mind, as well as recently in Tokyo introduced Fidelix - both work with PC (Mac ? ). You can use Foobar2000 with DSD decoder to play back DSD DFF files as ( up to )192/24 PCM on PC ( no Mac ) - for any other DSD, such as WSD or DSF, you will have to resort to Korg Audiogate ( PC and Mac ).in order to play DSD as PCM on computer. Needless to say, compared to these hi rez formats CD sound positively antiquated - let alone MP3. It never ceases to amaze me people seriously comparing serious headphones using MP3 as source ...

 

[complin]

Well if I were looking to spend that much on a turntable I would seriously consider one of Max Townshend's creations, The Rock 7 http://www.townshendaudio.com/turntables/the-rock-7  http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/townshend-audio-rock-7-turntable-tas-209/
The older models on the secondhand market like the Rock III and Rock Elite are great value but prices have been creeping up of late as people discover what great value and performance they offer.  The Rock reference is one of the greatest but not easy to come by in reasonable condition.
You can still use a Rega arm or you might like to consider the Morch http://www.moerch.dk/  The great thing about this arm is that you can buy different arm wands to match the compliance etc of the caretrudge you intend to use so you never have to compromise, especially if you change cartridges or use more than 1.
I use this set up my self a DP6 with a VanDen Hull cartridge but with an older version of the Rock.
 
You may not be aware but Stax produced several binural CD's some years ago.  They will pop up now and then on ebay.  Mostly classical and one or two other genres like Jazz, Brass Band.  I have sampled one or two of these but have to say I didnt find the recorded quality that great even though the binural effect was interesting
 
Quote:

I plan to use Rega Planar 9 + RB1000 tone arm + Esoteric DIN to RCA + Dynavector 17D3  or Transfiguration temper W
I was informed from a friend that it should not be hard to setup and use.
 
 
Here is the link that I mentioned about
http://www.binaural.com/binfaq.html    website concerning general knowledge, binaural recordings
and how to order them but I could not get it done from Thailand
 
 
Here is the link of LFF that I got the name of some awsome binaural recordings
http://www.head-fi.org/t/511850/awesome-binaural-albums

 

[kiertijai]

@Analogsurviver  & @Complin
    Thanks for the info on the setup of Vinyl.  I will take all these into considerations and will consult with my friends and dealer
 
I have tried the AKG K1000 vs new Jecklin on Mike Oldfield "Tubular Bells" SACD today.
Both displayed spectacular soundstage, imaging and musical separation.   The details is better
with the Jecklin however the sound with AKG K1000 is fuller (I am not saying that the Jecklin sounds thin),
more organic or more metallic in this SACD which makes the sound of the musical instruments in this SACD more real.
I prefer AKG K1000 in this kind of music.  I also listened to some pop rocks of The Killers, Owl City  the bass of the AKG K1000
has more impact (Mine is classic bass heavy version, SN 4028 with black wooden box) .