[Tyll Hertsens]

Quote:

Hmm.... that's my point the headings are consistent but what is under them isn't in many cases.  As I said too many inconsistencies, contradictions and anomalies
You must watch the  Tyll's/Steve Hoffman debate, its a classic 

 
I think you mean Steve Guttenberg.

 

[analogsurviver]

Quote:

Who is your favourite conductor of Mahler Symphony 2nd   ?  I have those of David Zinman (SACD), Otto Klemperer, Gielen in hand.
I should also have those of Bertini and Zubin Mehta but I cannot find them now.
I do have other Mahler 's Symphony : 1st Kubelik (audite), 3rd Horenstein, 4th Benjamin Zander, 5th Barshai, 6th Tomas Sanderling,
7th Kubelik & MTT, 8th Horenstein (it is with other right now)  , 9th Simon Rattle and  10th Barshai  most are redbook SACD's, some are SACD
or XRCD (6th by Tomas Sanderling)
I will try some time to listen to Mahler's, they need total concentration but my favourite is 5th by Barshai and 6th by Tomas Sanderling

No question about it - Stokowsky. He did not want to record it any earlier in his career, for the fear of having to be "ressurected" prematurely, or something along those lines. You REALLY appreciate this superb conducting , AFTER hearing it first, by opening the 2LP centerfold - with Stoky's, aged 90 something,  close up photo. The first question in my mind was:  ...and  this frail methusalem makes so powerful music ? It does not have the precision of ...., dexterity of ..., etc, etc - yet it did move me best of all. And it was not the first version of 2nd I heard or owned, as that first usually tends to be the dearest one and the one all others are compared to.
 
Above was gut response, without any thinking. A thinking response would be
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_Kaplan
 
If this is not the ultimate fan, then I not know who or what could have possibly exceeded everything Mr. Kaplan did for 2nd. I own the first recording conducted by him and will be getting second one on Deutsche Gramophon - in spite of this very fact , I usually do not like DG recordings regarding sound quality ( but I do appreciate musicians ). 
 
Lucky you, with Zinman's SACD, I have a CD version and if there is music and (good) recording of that music, capable of  proving beyond any shadow of a doubt that Caesar called CD is naked, it is Mahler 2nd and Telarc DSD recording of it.  In quiet passages, CD's 44.1/16 bit is simply not enough, resolution is far too poor.
 
My dream as a recording engineer is to record 2nd once without having to resort to any kind of compression, to which probably all the previous attempts save for Telarc's ( at least all I have heard ) have been forced to use - no recording or reproducing medium prior to DSD ( SACD ) could do the dynamic range of 2nd justice. It goes from momentarily complete silence to almost threshold of pain, in the quickest possible of times; transients are so fierce that played in a good hall by a good orchestra, naturally different decay times of various groups of instruments sway sound once from left to right, then opposite - I have yet to hear a recording that can approach this heard live ( although Zinman/Telarc comes close ). 
 
I did have an ill-fated attempt: I got permission to record it at  the very latest moment, all I could do in next to zero time available to pack the recording rig and get to the hall, was to pick my friend's HiMD recorder; 44,1/16 proved too litle, quiet passages were a mess when recording levels were adjusted just about 1 dB below overload in the finale. To further add to the insult, on that very day Sony HiMD decided to fatally malfunction - somehow, power was interrupted  druing SAVE and in everyone's book, that means recording lost. Some wizardry and hacking and kludging beyond and above the call of duty on the part of one technician in our Sony service could rescue about 90 % of it - but he had to sacrifice a bit at the beggining and the end of file. Anyway, due to practically zero time to position mics properly and no monitor other than IEMs, it was not anything approaching the results I had in the same hall.
 
But, I will keep trying - this time, DSD. And enough rehearsal/practice to position mics proper. What is unfortunately not repeatable, is the poise and energy of the young musicians from our Academy for Music in Ljubljana, under the baton of (then) just under 90 years of age conductor Anton Nanut.  It really was extraordinarily good performance indeed. What they ( save the conductor, of course ) lacked in "mileage", they sure did compensate with enthusiasm and energy only youth can offer.

 

[MuppetFace]

My Floats should be here early next week, as they've been shipped out from Germany.
 
I must say... reading about the driver failure Sam experienced is very discouraging, especially since I live in the US and shipping these to-and-from Germany again and again would be a major pain in the ass, not to mention costly. I really hope these work without a hitch.
 
Also disconcerting is the possibility of significant variation between drivers, if what Sam says about his replacement sounding inferior to the original is accurate. These smaller companies may very well have issues with consistency. The thought of it being a crap shoot like the Audez'e LCD-3 affair is... worrisome. I will say that Manfred's response kiertijai posted isn't particularly helpful, since the "people may not know what a neutral transducer sounds like" argument isn't just a tad condescending, but also not really sensible since Sam is basing his comparison on the Floats he heard before. Whether or not Sam "knows what a neutral transducer sounds like" is irrelevant, because he knows what his Floats sound like before and what they sound like now, and he isn't satisfied. Big difference.
 
Anyway....
 
I'm not a believer in burn-in significantly altering sound myself, so I'll be giving these a listen right out of the box. However I am a believer in journal-style impressions, so I'll be sharing any developments over time as I listen, burn-in or not.
 
Here's hoping I have good luck.

 

[analogsurviver]

Quote:

Well the question is do we actually agree with David Mahler's list? 

 A great project and effort which is to be commended, BUT
The individual headphone reviews are unfortunately full of inconsistencies, contradictions and anomalies which undermine the conclusions 
I subscribe to Tyll's view in the Steve Hoffman debate of how individuals perceive sound and the conclusions that we draw about its reality or otherwise.  Its an absolute watch!  For me Tyll has it spot on  http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/133 

Thank you for posting the Tyll/Steve debate link. Tyll had it spot on .
 
I have measured / adjusted so many phono systems that after seeing the results of measurements, I have a very good idea how a particular record player will sound in subjective terms. Unfortunately, headphones ( with the notable exceptions of Jecklin Float and AKG K 1000 ) add earpad/pinna interface into equation, and given that is different for each individual, it is (next to ) Mission Impossible to predict how a HP will sound, let alone reccomend a HP to another person with any great chance that person will hear the HPs remotely close to your own impressions. But, we soldier on and any attempts that bring our understanding a bit further are noteworthy.

 

[complin]

Yes Tyll you are correct my friend who lives in Zurcih is Steve Hoffman
I think its what they call a "senior moment" you know when you get upstairs and then can't remember what you went up their for! 

 
 

 
I think you mean Steve Guttenberg.

 

[complin]

If you don't mind me saying so buy you are missing the point here
The measurement of the physical characteristics of the headphone will give a strong indication of how a headphone will perform like transient response, sound stage, frequency coverage ....... However!
Towards the end of the debate Tyll makes the point that no two peoples perception of sound will be the same so people will naturally differ about how they perceive it
There is much, much more going on than sound waves hitting the ear drum and being received by the brain
 
Not only are our ears different but the way our brains interpolate the signal they receive is different.  We have different experiences and interpretations because of what the brain has experienced from life and stored away.
Similarly; if for some reason you suffer a hearing impairment the brain will gradually compensate so you almost regain normal hearing.  Also if you move to another headphone with a slightly different sound signature, again after a while the brain will start to compensate and the new sound becomes accepted as being the norm.
 
The conclusion I came to a long time ago is that subjective reviews are what they are billed as, "subjective", so another persons opinion of a headphone is and can only ever be a guide and never definitive.  So no matter what reviews you might read on this forum (David Mahler) or any other forum for that matter, you will only ever know if any headphone is suitable for you is to listen to it yourself.  So ranking of headphones as being the best in the world on purely someone else's subjective assessment is at best risky and at worst somewhat worthless.   
 
Quote:

Thank you for posting the Tyll/Steve debate link. Tyll had it spot on .
 
I have measured / adjusted so many phono systems that after seeing the results of measurements, I have a very good idea how a particular record player will sound in subjective terms. Unfortunately, headphones ( with the notable exceptions of Jecklin Float and AKG K 1000 ) add earpad/pinna interface into equation, and given that is different for each individual, it is (next to ) Mission Impossible to predict how a HP will sound, let alone reccomend a HP to another person with any great chance that person will hear the HPs remotely close to your own impressions. But, we soldier on and any attempts that bring our understanding a bit further are noteworthy.

 

[analogsurviver]

Quote:

If you don't mind me saying so buy you are missing the point here
The measurement of the physical characteristics of the headphone will give a strong indication of how a headphone will perform like transient response, sound stage, frequency coverage ....... However!
Towards the end of the debate Tyll makes the point that no two peoples perception of sound will be the same so people will naturally differ about how they perceive it
There is much, much more going on than sound waves hitting the ear drum and being received by the brain
 
Not only are our ears different but the way our brains interpolate the signal they receive is different.  We have different experiences and interpretations because of what the brain has experienced from life and stored away.
Similarly; if for some reason you suffer a hearing impairment the brain will gradually compensate so you almost regain normal hearing.  Also if you move to another headphone with a slightly different sound signature, again after a while the brain will start to compensate and the new sound becomes accepted as being the norm.
 
The conclusion I came to a long time ago is that subjective reviews are what they are billed as, "subjective", so another persons opinion of a headphone is and can only ever be a guide and never definitive.  So no matter what reviews you might read on this forum (David Mahler) or any other forum for that matter, you will only ever know if any headphone is suitable for you is to listen to it yourself.  So ranking of headphones as being the best in the world on purely someone else's subjective assessment is at best risky and at worst somewhat worthless.   
 

Agreed. Whatever the objective performance of anything in audio, it matters most if it speaks to the soul of the listener - or not - in the end. 
 
In between my last post and this one, we had a very illuminating listening session with a friend, who is singing tenor  in one of the very best and prestigious amateur choirs in the world, Vokalna Akademija Ljubljana ( VAL for short )
 
http://valval.si/si/  
 
and is also their producer and does the mastering of my recordings for them.  I do not want to disclose any detail regarding 2 different recording techniques used to record Czerny's version of Mozart Requiem ( piano 4 hand instead of an orchestra )  VAL did live in March of this year. Beetwen the two options, he prefers the one that is not so terribly accurate as regards the closest approximation to the sound heard live in the church during the concert, but the one that is more intimate and warm, even if it means slightly less articulate sound of the choir. From the perspective of the listener in the public, I prefer the other one, but can fully understand the sound prefered by friend  - must more closely approximate what he hears live as a performer - and therefore speaks better to him.
 
In music and sound, there will never be an absolute best "whatever", short of quantum leap of performance due to a technological breaktrough that is available for one brand/design exclusively. One might prefer Steinway, another Boesendorfer, yet another Fazioli ; but whatever heated debate among pianists which maker of piano is the best might lead to, it is fair to say all three are good/best and nuances that differentiate them are rather small to more casual listener, but can amount to significant proportion to the performer.

 

[analogsurviver]

Quote:

IMHO Sir George Solti and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.  Powerful interpretation and a classic Decca recording - Super!

I also have this one and CSO playing is superb. The sound , IIRC, by Tony Faulkner, is bettered by his later effort for the 1988 Kaplan recording.  But at the time it appeared, it was the best sounding ( SQ) version available. Still gets to grind my styli a lot, a very enjoyable performance. CD is but a pale copy of the vynil; UK version of normally mastered vynil I prefer over the German DMM mastered version.

 

[complin]

Is this the BBC live recording with Dame Janet Baker as the soprano you are referring to ?
 
Quote:

No question about it - Stokowsky. He did not want to record it any earlier in his career, for the fear of having to be "ressurected" prematurely, or something along those lines. You REALLY appreciate this superb conducting , AFTER hearing it first, by opening the 2LP centerfold - with Stoky's, aged 90 something,  close up photo. The first question in my mind was:  ...and  this frail methusalem makes so powerful music ? It does not have the precision of ...., dexterity of ..., etc, etc - yet it did move me best of all. And it was not the first version of 2nd I heard or owned, as that first usually tends to be the dearest one and the one all others are compared to.
 
 

 

[kiertijai]

IMHO Sir George Solti and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.  Powerful interpretation and a classic Decca recording - Super
      Please allow me time to find this one.  I may have Solti's Decca redbook CD
      and some more time for the quiet listening which is difficult to find because I live in the center of Bangkok
where the  traffice noise is almost 24 hours a day and it will definitely interfere with the listening of this masterpiece of Mahler
       BTW I have another SACD by Leonard Slatkin and St. Louis Symphony Orchestra , Katleen Battle (soprano) and Maureen
Forrester (Contralto)   I will also listen to this one.
 
Muppetface's new Jecklin Float will arrive next week,   please help sharing your impressions
 
I don't think we need long hours for burn in time.  After 20 hours ,  there is significant improvement to a  very satisfactory level.
The sound becomes fuller, more warmth (as Sam73 would like his pair to be?),   better dynamic range like the dynamic headphone,
better details and imaging.  I don't think we will have problem with imaging as I listen to several CD's SACD's : Tong Li :Where is my love:
(to test the treble- no sibilance at all, imaging of guijeng and other musical instruments),  David Sanborn : Time Again SACD,  Spyro Gyro : Wrapped
in a dream SACD, Tangerine Dream : Rubycon SACD, Mile Oldfield : Tubular Bells SACD.   The imaging is excellent to me.
I share the same opinion with Sam73 that the bass extension is very good and I am very satisfied with the bass response of the new Jecklin Float QA.

 

[kiertijai]

In the meantime I found the mercury living presence Stravinsky
The Firebird. SACD performed by Antal Dorati. I recalled the famous
Infernal Dance which also have excellent dynamic range. Again the
Jecklin Float handled this track with flying colors

 

[complin]

If you like Stravinsk you should listen to 

[size=10pt] Igor Stravinsky: The Rite of Spring / Alexander Scriabin: The Poem of Ecstasy - Valery Gergiev, Kirov Orchestra (2001)[/size]

http://avaxhome.ws/music/the_rite_of_spring_gergiev.html

Although some small mistakes were made during the editing of the recording its a fantastic performance, probably the most dramatic, outside Stravinsk's own
 
Quote:

In the meantime I found the mercury living presence Stravinsky
The Firebird. SACD performed by Antal Dorati. I recalled the famous
Infernal Dance which also have excellent dynamic range. Again the
Jecklin Float handled this track with flying colors

 

[Sam73]

Quote:

IMHO Sir George Solti and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.  Powerful interpretation and a classic Decca recording - Super
      Please allow me time to find this one.  I may have Solti's Decca redbook CD
      and some more time for the quiet listening which is difficult to find because I live in the center of Bangkok
where the  traffice noise is almost 24 hours a day and it will definitely interfere with the listening of this masterpiece of Mahler
       BTW I have another SACD by Leonard Slatkin and St. Louis Symphony Orchestra , Katleen Battle (soprano) and Maureen
Forrester (Contralto)   I will also listen to this one.
 
Muppetface's new Jecklin Float will arrive next week,   please help sharing your impressions
 
I don't think we need long hours for burn in time.  After 20 hours ,  there is significant improvement to a  very satisfactory level.
The sound becomes fuller, more warmth (as Sam73 would like his pair to be?),   better dynamic range like the dynamic headphone,
better details and imaging.  I don't think we will have problem with imaging as I listen to several CD's SACD's : Tong Li :Where is my love:
(to test the treble- no sibilance at all, imaging of guijeng and other musical instruments),  David Sanborn : Time Again SACD,  Spyro Gyro : Wrapped
in a dream SACD, Tangerine Dream : Rubycon SACD, Mile Oldfield : Tubular Bells SACD.   The imaging is excellent to me.
I share the same opinion with Sam73 that the bass extension is very good and I am very satisfied with the bass response of the new Jecklin Float QA.

 
 
I´m happy to hear this. Have Fun!

 

[kiertijai]

Dear Complin,   Thanks for the info. on the Rite of Spring .  I am looking for a good one to add to my collection.
I have time to listen to the Urlicht & Final movement  of Mahler Symphony 4 by Zinman, Slatkin and Klemperer again.
Yes I should say that the Jecklin Float QA handled the dynamic range of this colossal symphony nicely, however I dare
not say that the Jecklin Float QA do this movement justice?   When I find those of Solti or Stokowski I will try to listen again
and compare with other headphones by connecting (using my DIY  Kimber Kable speaker adapter cable to 4 pin XLR)
the speaker post of the transformer to my Sony MDR R10 bass heavy, AKG K1000, HE6.  
I don't think LCD3 will do justice here .  
I still can not do comparison with the takeT H2+ because I do need a longer jumpers for the setup.
I tried to listen to other genre of music i.e. live vocal so I chose Live at Troubadour : James Taylor + Carole King.  The Jecklin
demonstrated its airiness, clarity, imaging, soundstage and intimacy so beautiful in this wonderful recording even the powerful
singing of Carole did show some aging  .  The strokes of the piano by Carole King and the guitar playing of James Taylor & the
other three were so real.  

 

[MuppetFace]

@ kiertijai:
 
Does the Float QA come with any kind of storage or display box in addition to the standard packaging? Thanks for any info.