[tator]

Well I finally got my TT rig setup. Restored Dual 1229Q -> Marantz 2270. I bought the TT off eBay, and it came with a Shure V15 III cartridge. I've been playing records for a couple days now, and while they sound good, I can't help feeling that it sounds a little flat. This may be due to the age of the records since some new ones I bought sound a lot better. Also, I know it's not gonna be as good as a CD, but I feel I could use a little more detail. But my biggest beef is the lack of bass. It doesn't extend or slam anywhere near the way it does on CD's. And it's not the receiver, since it sounds exactly the same on each phono input. I can get a new stylus, if I need one, for about $20, but I'd be willing to spend around $100 on a new cartridge if it would help with the bass, reduce the flatness, and just generally improve the whole sound. I researched a little and been looking at the Shure M97, the Ortofon OM10/20, and maybe a Grado, but I heard they don't track well. The guy at my record shop gave me the impression that the cartridge really isn't that important, and that I'd be fine with a $20-40 one, but I thought I'd come here for a second opinion.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tator /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well I finally got my TT rig setup. Restored Dual 1229Q -> Marantz 2270. I bought the TT off eBay, and it came with a Shure V15 III cartridge. I've been playing records for a couple days now, and while they sound good, I can't help feeling that it sounds a little flat. This may be due to the age of the records since some new ones I bought sound a lot better. Also, I know it's not gonna be as good as a CD, but I feel I could use a little more detail. But my biggest beef is the lack of bass. It doesn't extend or slam anywhere near the way it does on CD's.

The V15 is much better than any of those carts you mention. It was the next one up from the M97 and cost about 3-4 times more unfortunately Shure stopped making them a year or two ago. Just check out how much these go for on ebay

Perhaps the stylus is worn? try a JICO SAS replacment which is widely regarded as better than the original Shure. http://www.export-japan.com/marketin...oducts_id=1047

What surface is the TT siting on? It should really be mounted on a wall shelf unless your floors are solid stone or concrete. Insufficient isolation could also account for lack of bass.

Lastly what do you mean by
Quote:

Originally Posted by tator /img/forum/go_quote.gif And it's not the receiver, since it sounds exactly the same on each phono input.

There is only one set of inputs which the TT will work properly on which are usually marked phono or disc. Although confusingly enough people call RCA inputs "phono" inputs the preamp section for the inputs marked "phono" is complelely different to those marked "aux" or "tape" or anything else.

 

[hciman77]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tator /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well I finally got my TT rig setup. Restored Dual 1229Q -> Marantz 2270. I bought the TT off eBay, and it came with a Shure V15 III cartridge. I've been playing records for a couple days now, and while they sound good, I can't help feeling that it sounds a little flat.

The Shure (as memepool says) is pretty highly regarded. When I listened to mine I didnt find it flat, if anything I thought it was a bit on the bright side compared to CD - but taste is very personal. Some options exist here

1) The Cart isnt set up properly, viz alignment, tracking weight
2) The stylus might be worn
3) You've been listening to CDs for too long to appreciate LPs

Quote:

This may be due to the age of the records since some new ones I bought sound a lot better.

As with any music medium the quality of the recording/mixing/pressing makes a huge difference.

Quote:

Also, I know it's not gonna be as good as a CD,

Well, thats a given

Quote:

but I feel I could use a little more detail. But my biggest beef is the lack of bass. It doesn't extend or slam anywhere near the way it does on CD's.

Well, this is more vexed. CD and LP mixes may not be the same and LP does have some well documented physical limits which mean that really low bass is frequently cut as mono - there is some debate as to whether such low bass is perecived as being as directional as higher frequencies, also really low bass may be a problem as you can be approaching tone-arm resonance territory here.

Quote:

I can get a new stylus, if I need one, for about $20, but I'd be willing to spend around $100 on a new cartridge if it would help with the bass, reduce the flatness, and just generally improve the whole sound.

There are lots of after-market stylii for the V15 Mk III - they may not all be equal. The one I bought cost $40 but tests almost identically to the original VN35E stylus which is absurdly expensive and very hard to come by. There are others as memepool mentioned that may be better than the Shure stylus.

Quote:

The guy at my record shop gave me the impression that the cartridge really isn't that important, and that I'd be fine with a $20-40 one, but I thought I'd come here for a second opinion.

Well, if you have a cartridge that mistracks vs one that doesnt you will certainly hear a difference. To some extent it may depend on what you listen to. There are a bunch of test lps out there and you can judge a cartridge partly by how well it tracks highly complex grooves - the cannons from the 1812 Overture are often used. and legend has it that few carts can track this properly. Also cartridges have measurable performance statistics such as Frequency response and crosstalk that will differ, probably more so than the differences between 2 CD players - had to put that in

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hciman77 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Shure (as memepool says) is pretty highly regarded. When I listened to mine I didnt find it flat, if anything I thought it was a bit on the bright side compared to CD - but taste is very personal. Some options exist here 1) The Cart isnt set up properly, viz alignment, tracking weight 2) The stylus might be worn 3) You've been listening to CDs for too long to appreciate LPs

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/shurev15_e.html

Here is a review of the Shure V15VxMR which was the last version made. V15 fans argue endlessly about which is the best V15 but the III would generally be regarded as the most classic.

Bass and Moving Coil standard definition accross the mid-range and treble is what the V15s are famous for as well as benchmark tracking ability. In short this is one of the best MM carts ever. Today you'd need to go for a Goldring 1042GX to get anywhere close.

As hciman says the 3rd party replacement styli are hit and miss and this is why people pay such inflated sums for the dwindling stocks of NOS Shure ones.
What sets the originals apart is the standard and finish of the diamond as well as it's dimensions and Micro Ridge profile. Many companies try to ape this but, if you trawl the vinyl forums on the web, the JICO SAS is the only one that anyone actually regards as approaching the Shure original, never mind improving upon it....

 

[Lord Chaos]

Tator, you have many interrelated factors to consider. Playing an LP is a very complex process, so you need to take this a step at a time. Make one change to your system and listen. If there's a difference, and you like it, pursue it.

Start with easy things that are free, such as borrowing another amplifier. You could also take a couple of your records to a known good playback system, assess their sound, and think about how it compares to your system.

Some notes on LPs: Bass is different because the output of an inductive system, such as a phono cartridge, is dependent upon frequency: the higher the frequency, the greater the output. This is why there's the RIAA equalization curve; without it, the grooves would have to be much farther apart to accommodate the excursion needed for bass... and no cartridge would track it. Mastering an LP is a tricky proposition calling for many compromises. This is why playing your record on another system will help identify what you're hearing.

 

[bigshot]

I would recommend a new cartridge, not so much for sound quality, but for the safety of your records. Vintage cartridges can have dried up rubber gaskets that make the cantilever too stiff. This can cause mistracking and record wear.

See ya
Steve

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif Vintage cartridges can have dried up rubber gaskets that make the cantilever too stiff. This can cause mistracking and record wear

In general it's always best to replace the stylus of a 2nd hand cart no matter what the vendor may say about "only having broken it in" ...etc for this exact reason.
However with carts that have removable stylii sections like the Shure there is little danger of the cart body being faulty and the suspenion is part of the replacement Stylii.

 

[tator]

Thanks for all the comments. I think hciman77 probably nailed it. I've only ever heard CD's so I'm probably expecting too much from LP's. But I am enjoying it. Before I started playing records, I couldn't stop obsessing over whether or not my new amp and speakers sounded right, but as soon as I played that first record, all I heard was sweet music.

I will probably buy one of those JICO stylus, if nothing more than the peace of mind. Right now my TT sits on a towel (so it doesn't scratch wood) on top of wooden cabinet type thing. This is only temporary, as I'm going back to school and my apartment in a month. I don't know about a wall mount, but I was thinking about building a two shelf stand, top for TT, bottom for receiver which weighs a good 30 lbs. Nothing fancy, it would be out of 2x4's, and heavy pieces of lumber for the shelves to add weight.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tator /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for all the comments. I think hciman77 probably nailed it. I've only ever heard CD's so I'm probably expecting too much from LP's. But I am enjoying it. Before I started playing records, I couldn't stop obsessing over whether or not my new amp and speakers sounded right, but as soon as I played that first record, all I heard was sweet music.

The only really obvious place where CD's generally score over LP's sonically is the noisefloor. With new records this isn't so much of an issue but with 2nd hand records especially with classical music it is.
This can be alleviated almost completely with expensive vacuum cleaning machines and basically the better your turntable / arm / cartridge are the less noise.
This is because the noise comes not only from the records themselves but the whole playback system and it's surroundings.
Remember it's a largely mechanical apparatus designed to amplify small vibrations, therefore the higher quality the engineering of the system the better it is at picking out the vibrations you want (ie those on the record) from those you don't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tator /img/forum/go_quote.gif I will probably buy one of those JICO stylus, if nothing more than the peace of mind. Right now my TT sits on a towel (so it doesn't scratch wood) on top of wooden cabinet type thing. This is only temporary, as I'm going back to school and my apartment in a month. I don't know about a wall mount, but I was thinking about building a two shelf stand, top for TT, bottom for receiver which weighs a good 30 lbs. Nothing fancy, it would be out of 2x4's, and heavy pieces of lumber for the shelves to add weight.

The line contact stylus on the JICO with dig deeper into the grooves past the more obvious wear and tear from the lesser eliptical and conical tips the vast majority of record players are equiped with resulting in much less noise.

However the whole system can only work as well as it's allowed to by what's supporting it. Putting it on a more solid foundation will have a huge impact on how it sounds especially at the frequncy extremes and also with respect to things like soundstage.

I don't know where this idea about putting towels under turntables is coming from but it's the absolute worst support. A turntable has to be on a flat surface otherwise you will damage both the records and the turntable itself.

Get some foculpods / polypods or whatever branded self-adhesive sorbothane feet you can find and these will protect the surface it's sitting on and give it some isolation.

Generally unless you have a really solid floor, one not made of wooden floorboards supsended accross joists which bounce whenever you walk around, then by far the best solution is to fix the deck to the wall on a shelf.
Target and Apollo make various versions for around 100 USD some of which have two shelves, but a solid DIY effort is perfectly fine.

 

[djbnh]

You don't mention anything about: A) if your deck has been properly cleaned / lubricated / worn-out parts replaced / adjusted prior to spinning vinyl. I think that Dual is over the 30 year age point, which means it'll need all of the above unless it's already been done; B) what phono section / preamp you're using, or any of the other related equipment. I think one of your post's mentioned "receiver", so I'm doubtfully wondering if the "receiver" 's phono section is anything to get excited about and is an important part of the reason for your current dissatisfaction. So, I further can't comment about impedance matching et al, very important parts of the sound reproduction chain. If your phono section sucks, you'll need to upgrade. So, I'm not sure I agree with your comment, Quote:

And it's not the receiver, since it sounds exactly the same on each phono input.

BTW - just how many phono inputs does your receiver have? Are any MC, or only MM? Maybe you've got a ceramic section as well, my old Fisher receiver circa 1961 has one of those...

Furthermore, I got an excellent chuckle from reading this:
Quote:

The guy at my record shop gave me the impression that the cartridge really isn't that important, and that I'd be fine with a $20-40 one

If he meant that you wouldn't be able to hear any difference between a $40 cartridge and $500 cartridge due to the quality of your deck and receiver, maybe due to the information he has that opinion is valid. Otherwise, I have no clue how he comes to that conclusion.

With the above in mind, I recommend:

1) first rechecking all TT set-up parameters - turntable / platter leveling; cartridge alignment, tracking force, VTA, azimuth (if adjustable); etc. [There are plenty of free protractors alignment devices available on the web, good place to start, and stay for quite a while, is The Vinyl Engine.] Anyway, remember to recheck the parameters if you change any of the above. Offhand I cannot remember if your rig is VTA-adjustable (my Rega P25 isn't, so I purchased and installed the Pete Riggle VTAF, with very favorable results). [NOTE: I love using Walker SST on the cartridge pins, ups detail retrieval very nicely. You may want to consider cleaning the deck's RCA plugs; additionally, you can subsequently coat them with SST on them as well. CAUTION: APPLY SST ACCORDING TO WALKER'S DIRECTIONS ONLY! The aforementioned is in caps for good reason.]

2) getting / borrowing a HiFi News Test record. First use it to set the anti-skate. Then do the torture tracks and see how things sound / track. If it's not properly tracking all but the most difficult of the torture tracks, you've got problems.

3) determining what cartridges match optimally with your tonearm. Cartridge compliance is critical: it is important to know the compliance of the cartridge to determine which tonearm works best. Heavy arms need low compliance cartridges, light tonearms match with high compliance cartridges. Go to The Vinyl Engine, once you find out more about your tonearm, and check the cartridge database for optimal / acceptable matches.

Good luck. Sounds like you've got a lot of homework ahead of you, but that's the vinyl learning / tweaking curve. It's not for everyone.

 

[tbonner1]

I would keep the V15 type III as it is a good match with the low mass Dual tonearm.

You can research aftermarket stylus replacements at Audio Asylum. Be careful, as the quality of some are not up to OEM standards

 

[ssportclay]

The only stylus for the old Shure V15 Type III worth consideration is the JICO SAS.Its better than any stylus offered by Shure.