[DjBobby]

Hi guys,
For those who use Burson Play as a preamp. Do you experience any problems with USB ground loop?
I have plugged in my active monitors with RCA cables and there are some kind of interference noises especially while moving mouse, and scrolling. It comes from speakers only, headphone out is completely black.
The noise stops when I unplug the USB cable.
To answer your possible questions, all the connections are correct, I tryied different cables, checked the power cables, cable managment, different USB sockets, took off Graphic Card, Sound Card, wi-fi etc. and the problem remains the same.
USB connection makes some kind of ground loop.
From the internet I have found a temporary solution to cover USB 4th pin on Bursons end (ground) with isolation tape and noise disappeared but I don't think it should work like this forever
Also, when I plug my active monitors to my AIM SC808 with RCA cables it makes same interference noise as Burson via USB (while moving mouse and scrolling).
Have any of you had experienced this problem? Technically I don't know how could I ground my PC case better or motherboard (ASUS Z170 pro gaming) to solve this becouse it's definietely grounding problem.

Thanks!

Used it with an iMac, I couldn't hear any noise or ground loop on pre-out.

 

[NCSUZoSo]

Hi guys,
For those who use Burson Play as a preamp. Do you experience any problems with USB ground loop?
I have plugged in my active monitors with RCA cables and there are some kind of interference noises especially while moving mouse, and scrolling. It comes from speakers only, headphone out is completely black.
The noise stops when I unplug the USB cable.
To answer your possible questions, all the connections are correct, I tryied different cables, checked the power cables, cable managment, different USB sockets, took off Graphic Card, Sound Card, wi-fi etc. and the problem remains the same.
USB connection makes some kind of ground loop.
From the internet I have found a temporary solution to cover USB 4th pin on Bursons end (ground) with isolation tape and noise disappeared but I don't think it should work like this forever
Also, when I plug my active monitors to my AIM SC808 with RCA cables it makes same interference noise as Burson via USB (while moving mouse and scrolling).
Have any of you had experienced this problem? Technically I don't know how could I ground my PC case better or motherboard (ASUS Z170 pro gaming) to solve this becouse it's definietely grounding problem.

Thanks!

I have heard a little bit of hum when I had too much gain on one of my devices, but I don't own any active speakers. Burson Audio is aware of the gain differences issue and the next revision of the Play will have user adjustable gain that you can dial in to kill any hum between devices. High powered DACs like the ES9038Pro have these kind of technologies built right into the silicone. Usually when you hear noise moving the mouse around it is due to a higher amperage draw from the GPU or CPU or even the RAM, something is pulling more power than before causing that noise. I have been hearing this noise and reporting on it for at least a decade, it is way worse on the Creative ZXr before the mylar cap mod. Right now I am testing PS Audio's Noise Harvester™ to see if it can help with noise on the AC line, early thoughts are that it doesn't hurt anything I can pick up on.

How are you powering your Play? If you are running it inside of a PC case I would say to try the power brick included with it instead. Or if you are already doing that, I'd recommend putting the Play's power brick on a different outlet than your PC is running on. Are you running a desktop or a laptop? Desktops are more likely to do this, especially if you have a powerful GPU and/or CPU.

If you are truly getting ground loop and not that distorted sound from moving the mouse, you can try running a dedicated ground line (this is a bit extreme though). Sorry if I asked things you already answered, I was reading the post as I was thinking/writing.

One other thing I'd recommend looking at is the AudioQuest Jitterbug, I know it's not ground aimed in what it does, but people have had these things give great results with issues like you describe. I wish we could run the SBooster VBus2™ (or VBus3™) because this cuts the power and ground signals at the PC before they have a chance to pollute the digital signal. We could run the VBus2™ and then inject a quality 5V signal from a PSU module with a filter cap/s + LDO and rectifier into the USB line (down line from the VBus2™). Again, slightly extreme solution.

 

[Dżoneł]

I have heard a little bit of hum when I had too much gain on one of my devices, but I don't own any active speakers. Burson Audio is aware of the gain differences issue and the next revision of the Play will have user adjustable gain that you can dial in to kill any hum between devices. High powered DACs like the ES9038Pro have these kind of technologies built right into the silicone. Usually when you hear noise moving the mouse around it is due to a higher amperage draw from the GPU or CPU or even the RAM, something is pulling more power than before causing that noise. I have been hearing this noise and reporting on it for at least a decade, it is way worse on the Creative ZXr before the mylar cap mod. Right now I am testing PS Audio's Noise Harvester™ to see if it can help with noise on the AC line, early thoughts are that it doesn't hurt anything I can pick up on.

How are you powering your Play? If you are running it inside of a PC case I would say to try the power brick included with it instead. Or if you are already doing that, I'd recommend putting the Play's power brick on a different outlet than your PC is running on. Are you running a desktop or a laptop? Desktops are more likely to do this, especially if you have a powerful GPU and/or CPU.

If you are truly getting ground loop and not that distorted sound from moving the mouse, you can try running a dedicated ground line (this is a bit extreme though). Sorry if I asked things you already answered, I was reading the post as I was thinking/writing.

One other thing I'd recommend looking at is the AudioQuest Jitterbug, I know it's not ground aimed in what it does, but people have had these things give great results with issues like you describe. I wish we could run the SBooster VBus2™ (or VBus3™) because this cuts the power and ground signals at the PC before they have a chance to pollute the digital signal. We could run the VBus2™ and then inject a quality 5V signal from a PSU module with a filter cap/s + LDO and rectifier into the USB line (down line from the VBus2™). Again, slightly extreme solution.

My Play lays on the desk, powered by the power brick included. I use it with my Desktop PC. However, when I use laptop, there's no such noise, at all. I will try to downgrade OC'ed RAMs as you suggested they possibly cause problems with power draw.
I might be wrong calling it a ground loop but covering the ground pin of USB cable removes the noises, so I'm thinking to make a DIY custom USB cable without ground connection on Bursons end...
I will consider the AudioQuest Jitterbug as well becouse it's easily available at the store as I see.

 

[NCSUZoSo]

In my upcoming review for the Burson Play I will include this point of the "mouse noise™" (not really ™, lol). For the record, I can only ever hear this on my Audeze EL-8 open-backs, never on my Wharfedale Diamond 220s. It is usually when the PSU is higher in load, but I upgraded my PSU recently so I may no longer be able to recreate this problem. It probably has to do with noise on the ground or one of the power lines of the PC and/or PSU. One other point worth noting, this is not even close to isolated to the Burson Play, it's a common problem with high current draw PCs/gaming PC/workstations.

I'll see if I can replicate it and then get rid of it depending on what I have running. I have an AudioQuest Jitterbug and 2x VBus2™. I can try what I said, but currently I don't get that mouse artifact; or it would actually show up as aliasing on my Siglent SDS-1202X-E 200 MHz SPO (Super Phosphor Oscilloscope) 2 Ch. Also I am not sure if I want to hack up a USB cable, but I do have an older (unused usually) AudioQuest Forest USB A to B cable that I can use for this idea/project! I also have a PSU module with 3x 5V outputs (AC or DC in) using LT1963A EQ LDOs and LA Nover RH34 (6800uF|35V) capacitor + ELNA SILMIC-II (100uF|16V) and WIMA (0.1uF|100V), caps with full wave rectifier on board. I would need to check with Burson Audio to see if this is safe or not, I believe I can easily do this safely. I did make it to my Jr year in Elect Engineering If this does work, it would solve all of the problems you are describing, because we are no longer linked to the GPU and CPU loads.

If anyone wants to see anything in particular that you think I might not normally test for, request it here in the thread! I will be updating the technical section as I go, so you have time to ask me and if feasible I will test and measure for it. I have the ZXr with V5-OPAs in it as the testing card in RightMark with 192 kHz recording/RCA in. I'll be testing for jitter, floor noise and other stuff already on my oscilloscope once I am done discussing with engineers at Burson. Basically they have an idea of what my measurements should lead me to, but there are settings like what is the impedance of every cable between you and the source. Sometimes it's a simple question, but if you are splitting the line like me you have cables all over!

See more at the site in my sig soon.I hope to publish the listening tests and meat of the written review in 1-2 more days (waiting on editor). The tech section will be published as it is ready. I am working with Burson Audio to find out how they test their own DACs


Anyone care to help/talk about how to take HQ measurements of DACs/Amps?


I already have an "Ultimate DSD256 test disk from https://www.prostudiomasters.com/ that gives you almost all frequencies and pink/grey/white/etc noise you can use. My question is if I play a 120 Hz sine wave out of my PC into my DAC (into my oscilloscope) how do I match up the timing with an external 200MSa/S 12-Bit Dual Channel Digital Signal Generator (can even do custom waves with USB input from the PC) going into the other channel of the oscilloscope. I don't know how to trigger off the PC signal/sine wave or have the or have the PC trigger off the DDS. Now that I think about it, technically triggering on the PC is just hitting play, I might be able to match it, but I'd like a better answer. I currently use EasyScopeX to capture my oscilloscope's video and images. This example is the most basic case but it highlights one of the biggest issues for hobbyist. Those wanting measurements outside of automated software like RightMark. RightMark can be run by anyone, I was hoping to use some HQ signals to get the best measurements and most realistic for high res listeners. Any difference in when the signals are represented on the oscilloscope will add to jitter if I measure it this way. I may just have to measure it from the left and right channels, again playing a test freq. Should I chuck the external DDS generator and only use DSD256 test frequencies, preferably in mono I suppose (so both L and R are identical).

Check out what my new PSU the Corsair HX750i can do!

 

[raoultrifan]

Yeah it seems they basically made a DOUBLE PLAY and just doubled the headphone amp portion of it and cut the DAC out. [...]

I actually see inside the FUN the exact PLAY components, but with 4 boost-converters instead of 2 and, of course, with no DAC. However, glad they built a dedicated amplifier with such a powerful output stage.

 

[raoultrifan]

In my upcoming review for the Burson Play I will include this point of the "mouse noise™" (not really ™, lol). [...]

Try muting the input sound from your Control Panel > Audio Devices, especially the BURSON's microphone input. Sometimes the audio input is causing audible "mouse noise", so disabling all of the audio input sources might help while listening to music.

 

[WilliamLeonhart]

I've never had these "mouse click" problem on any dac/amp/headphones. I believe it has more to do with Windows and the PC architecture more... When I passed the Play to the next friend in the review tour I spent like 1 or 2 hours helping him setting it up so that he can use it inn games, not just in exclusive modes for Foobar and Tidal. It involved us installing the driver to see that there're 2 devices connected, removing 1 of them (the XMOS one) and updating to Burson's one via manual browsing. Funny thing is removing/installing again isn't needed if you only use Foobar/JRiver/Tidal and choose exclusive output.

It's not Burson's problem, really, as my friend's JH Labs also came with such a perplexing installing experience. I've had PC that always had static noises on DACs. If the DAC doesn't come with XMOS, it's even worse as you'd have to use WASAPI on Windows, where clicking pop noises are virtually guaranteed.

 

[NCSUZoSo]

As I said, this is directly related to the power draw of the PC, it's not OS related in any fashion. The sound is always there at a very low level, it's like moving the mouse on certain systems brings this noise into the audible range.

Let's say I still have the issue mentioned on moving the mouse; If I pull the GPU (1070 on H2O) out of my PC and switch to the iGPU on the CPU, the noise will/would stop immediately. I have picked this noise up on both Linux and Windows with stout desktops always being the source of the issue. I brought up this problem to Creative 3 or 4 times between the Prelude X-Fi and my ZXr. I used to be able to replicate this problem easily, but I can only make it happen randomly now. As I said this is usually only audible through headphones and even then it takes a trained listener to pick up on it sometimes. Also, I am running a PS Audio Noise Harvester, so that is probably helping some of the noise on my AC line.

BTW, I finished the I2S build for the Burson Play's competition in my review! I hope today the writing will be finished, now that I have a fair comparison (both DACs using I2S).

 

[selvakumar]

I have heard a little bit of hum when I had too much gain on one of my devices, but I don't own any active speakers. Burson Audio is aware of the gain differences issue and the next revision of the Play will have user adjustable gain that you can dial in to kill any hum between devices. High powered DACs like the ES9038Pro have these kind of technologies built right into the silicone. Usually when you hear noise moving the mouse around it is due to a higher amperage draw from the GPU or CPU or even the RAM, something is pulling more power than before causing that noise. I have been hearing this noise and reporting on it for at least a decade, it is way worse on the Creative ZXr before the mylar cap mod. Right now I am testing PS Audio's Noise Harvester™ to see if it can help with noise on the AC line, early thoughts are that it doesn't hurt anything I can pick up on.

How are you powering your Play? If you are running it inside of a PC case I would say to try the power brick included with it instead. Or if you are already doing that, I'd recommend putting the Play's power brick on a different outlet than your PC is running on. Are you running a desktop or a laptop? Desktops are more likely to do this, especially if you have a powerful GPU and/or CPU.

If you are truly getting ground loop and not that distorted sound from moving the mouse, you can try running a dedicated ground line (this is a bit extreme though). Sorry if I asked things you already answered, I was reading the post as I was thinking/writing.

One other thing I'd recommend looking at is the AudioQuest Jitterbug, I know it's not ground aimed in what it does, but people have had these things give great results with issues like you describe. I wish we could run the SBooster VBus2™ (or VBus3™) because this cuts the power and ground signals at the PC before they have a chance to pollute the digital signal. We could run the VBus2™ and then inject a quality 5V signal from a PSU module with a filter cap/s + LDO and rectifier into the USB line (down line from the VBus2™). Again, slightly extreme solution.

same for me too im having three different play with all new revsion board and i do hear noise in right ear cups when moving mouse

 

[raoultrifan]

It would be interesting if many of us could replicate this hum. Could you please let us know something about your setup?
- model/type of your headphones (impedance, if known too), also cable length
- model/type of your mouse (is it wired or wireless? optical or laser?)
- distance from mouse to PLAY/headphones
- is the Sound Input devices in Control Panel set to OFF, so no input device as microphone to be active while playing on PLAY?

Thank you!

 

[selvakumar]

Beyerdynamics DT1770 PRO,Audeze EL8 Open Back,HD 600 mouse im using logitechg502

 

[selvakumar]

my psu corsair HX1000i
zotac 980ti Amp extreme SLI
intel core i7 6950x Extreme Edition
Asus Rampage V Exreme Edition 10.
Corsair Dominator 32gb DDR4 3000Mhz

 

[snellemin]

I received a Review Play unit and I don't hear any PC noise. I'm using a bluetooth Keyboard and mouse.

 

[Dżoneł]

Hello,

My setup:
BeQuiet! Dark Power Pro P8 750W
ASUS Z170 Pro gaming
Intel Pentium G4560
M.2 SSD Intel + HDD
GTX 680
16 GB Samsung 3200 MHz
AIM SC808
Burson Play
Mouse is Roccat Kiro (optical)
Headphones: K712 pro, Beyers 990 pro, K271 mkII
Active monitors ADAM AUDIO T7V

Well, in my curious case, I hear noises especially when moving mouse, also when the CPU/GPU/hard disk push harder (starting system, loading movies from youtube, games, etc.)
Noises are heard only from active monitors which are the most sensitive ones from my setup I suppose.
From all the inputs I plug them into, noises are present (AIM, Burson, Mobo rear jack, etc.)
Can't hear any noises when wearing headphones, the background is completely black, whatever I do.
Changing the layout of cables makes no difference.
I use unbalanced connection to my monitors, 1,2 m long RCA cables (tryied different cables as well)
Mouse is half meter away from Burson unit which lays on the desk powered by dedicated power supply.
So far, I can tell that the interference noises comes from USB port, from the ground connection pin, becouse when I cover the ground pin, it disappears completely (though, still present from AIM via RCA and mobo via rear jack)
When I mute all the inputs from my system, even unplugging mic, it doesn't help.
When turning off all the others audio devices, noises are still present.

I think the problem comes from the PC so I don't want to make an offtop. However, the XMOS reciever could filter such noises if it's that good

I'm going to try the AudioQuest Jitterbug soon.

 

[NCSUZoSo]

I have found a way to replicate this mouse related signal artifacts/aliasing repeatedly on a v2.0 Play, one that I am currently reviewing.

Note: In order to hear this I have to use my Audeze EL-8 open-backs and have the gain cranked up with nothing playing. (i.e. non-realistic listening situation except for a split second between tracks or movie/TV scenes). Usually a movie's sort of low level pink-noise keeps the sound at bay (sometimes), also some days it's worse than others. It's still audible if you lower the gain, but much lower. If you are playing anything, I no longer see that once visible noise on my FFT (Siglent SDS 1202X-E 200 MHz 2 Ch Super Phosphor Oscilloscope) that happens with the mouse movement to a T, no question that is the cause.

Why it is connected to mouse movement? I have no idea! However, I know that moving the mouse is probably tied directly to GPU acceleration. Over at least 10 years where I have been active in the PC Audio community no company has ever really tried to solve this mystery that has haunted PC audio for at least 20 years now. One thing I have brought up is the fact that you can use dithering on audio, especially S/PDIF which is basically adding high frequency noise on top of the audio signal. Sometimes this will actually give a better sense of texture and ambience, better top-end is the overall take away usually. I have asked Burson Audio rep Alex if Burson uses dithering of any sort, but I never got a definitive reply. This could be due to intellectual property rights and their trade secrets that can't be shared openly. Or the fact I write Alex way too many emails, they probably wish I'd just publish my 100+ emails back and forth, haha. We can discover them for ourselves! Come to my ad-free/tracker-free/pop-up-free Hardware site www.HallmanLabs.com or contact me directly at keith@hallmanlabs.com to talk about anything Burson Audio, Sparkos Labs or Orange Amplification! I get people who just want to chat about audio HW all the time!

This is causing me to hold off on measurements as explained earlier. I am meeting with my editor tomorrow night to go over the meat of the review once more before publishing tomorrow late night (missing the measurements/technical section temporarily until we figure out the root cause of this noise). I will start a topic on my website, but I am building a 2nd computer, almost a clone to my first except not as nice of HW plus I am going Linux to see if this makes a difference. It will be a i5 3570K (delidded) w/ Cooler Master V8 GTS cooler + 16GB GSkill + GTX 480 (lol, most power hungry GPU ever, right?) If this sounds interesting definitely check my site soon. This is my next project after the Burson Review is done and I'll start it very soon!

Another thing worth noting is the fact that my ES9038Pro + FUN01 v1.1 do not have nearly the amount of noise as the Burson Play, even with max gain on all amps/pre-amps. So there is something happening specific to the Play causing this, soon we will see if OS fixes this issue as i build my 2nd PC for HL!


Looking forward to hearing opinions, especially when it's completely done with oscilloscope images AND 1080p 500x magnification videos! 0-500x wide focal range microscope, aimed at hobbyist soldering and scientists, coming in at around $150-$200 usually. This is a very good piece of equipment with the right software, I recommend the W10 app LabCamera, very powerful even for a normal web cam.

I added a link to my PSU review at AnAndTech, this thing allows you to hop between single and multi rail at any time and also monitor the live efficiency rating in graph form. FYI, this is a brand new PSU, not even 3 months old yet.

CPU: Intel i7 3770K @ 4.6GHz (Stock 3.5GHz)
GPU: MSI GTX 1070 Armor @ 2.14 GHz / 9.624 Gbps (45C Max Temp)
Displays: HTC Vive + Viewsonic XG2703-GS (G-Sync) 27" & BenQ FP241W 24"
Mobo: ASRock Z77 OC Formula 2.3P
Sound: ES9038Pro DAC + FUN01 (SU-1 Clone) + Yamaha RX-V863 (LPCM) + Wharfedale 220s & Definitive Technology Speakers + Polk Monitor70 Floor-standing
RAM: Corsair Vengeance Pro DDR3 2400 4x8GB (32GB)
SSD: Samsung 860 EVO 1TB + 850 EVO 500GB + 840 Pro 128GB
PSU: Corsair HX750i 75W 80+ Platinum Certified (62.5A max)
UPS: Cyberpower CP1500AVRLCD (900W)
OS: Microsoft Windows 10 Pro x64
Cooling: Corsair Air 740 + NZXT Kraken X62 + Corsair H110 + Noctua NF-A14 iPPC-3000 PWM x4