New Audeze LCD3
Feb 10, 2012 at 9:33 PM Post #3,601 of 11,521


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I might post my questions directly on InnerFidelity for Tyll, but I'm confused by both the data and tentative conclusions Tyll makes.  According to Tyll, the 2 LCD-3s with a more pronounced dip between 2-3kHz are the same ones that sounded "more present" with female vocals.  
 
I don't claim to understand any of this data, but this seems contradictory to me.  Wouldn't the headphones with a larger dip in the upper midrange sound more recessed or more veiled with vocals?
 
Also, the other 2 headphones he tested have a more significant THD+noise peak, but their frequency response graphs are smoother (especially in the much-discussed upper midrange area).  What, if any, noticeable effect on sound quality would a high THD+noise peak have on the sound?  Are THD+noise and frequency response totally unrelated?
 
I'm not sure if it's the power of persuasion, but I'm starting to think that my LCD-3s either have a very neutral or a slightly recessed midrange.  From memory, my LCD-2s had a more forward midrange, but I found that a bit too intimate and "inside my head" on some recordings.  The LCD-3's midrange is more laid-back by comparison, but I can't tell for sure whether it's unnaturally recessed.


My previous comments are restricted to my experiences with my LCD-2 rev. 2 and LCD-3s. One of the improvements that's fairly consistently agreed upon (but not unanimously, nothing is around here) is the sound staging and sense of space has been improved. Skylab noted that the LCD-3s are better than the HE-6s, I think they're both fairly similar in that regard. But that's a very welcomed improvement to my ears.
 
 
 
 
Feb 10, 2012 at 9:44 PM Post #3,602 of 11,521
I definitely agree that, in just about every area except possibly the midrange, the LCD-3s are an improvement over my LCD-2 r.1s.  The midrange on my LCD-3 is probably more accurate and detailed, but it might also be a little more distant than what I remember my LCD-2s sounding like (though it's been a while).
 
Anyway, if anyone can shed light on the questions I posed in my last post, it would be appreciated.  That is, if there are any definitive answers.  It's a confusing time to be an LCD-3 owner, especially with the radio silence from Audeze...
 
Feb 10, 2012 at 9:45 PM Post #3,603 of 11,521


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Besides having sampled an LCD-3 with the veil my biggest concern with them is one of the issues Sillysally has mentioned "lot of air pressure on the ear drums"  From the moment I started using the 3's and through the 3 weeks I had them, I felt this excessive pressure on my ear drums.  Perhaps it is the extra seal the pads seem to make over the seal from the 2's.  The leather on the 3's is much softer and seems to adhere to the skin with a tighter seal than the leather on the pads of the 2.   I listen at volumes that are average and below average because I am generally concerned about over working my ears through headphone usage.  But after 3 weeks of using the LCD-3 in that manner I obtained a terrible aggravated case of tinnitus something that had not happened through 6 months of using the LCD-2 r. and r.2.

The tinnitus got to be so bad I haven't actually used headphones since Dec 30th.   I'm actually afraid to try again.   I have conversed with a few other folks about this and some of them also noted the extra pressure on the ear drums from the LCD-3's.   I'm not calling it a fault or anything like that, I just wanted to convey my personal experience from that aspect.
 



 
 
I totally gets what you are saying. As soon as placed these loaners I have here in my head felt that strange sensation inside my ears that you are calling pressure. IMO it is created by the combination of the tight seal and softness of the earpads which promotes kind of a vaccum in the ear. To me it is uncomfortable and distracting but others my no have the same experience.
 
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Feb 10, 2012 at 10:26 PM Post #3,604 of 11,521


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I definitely agree that, in just about every area except possibly the midrange, the LCD-3s are an improvement over my LCD-2 r.1s.  The midrange on my LCD-3 is probably more accurate and detailed, but it might also be a little more distant than what I remember my LCD-2s sounding like (though it's been a while).
 
Anyway, if anyone can shed light on the questions I posed in my last post, it would be appreciated.  That is, if there are any definitive answers.  It's a confusing time to be an LCD-3 owner, especially with the radio silence from Audeze...



From my experience of the LCD-2 and the r2, the original ones seemed to have a slightly more forward feeling mid range.  I should also note, however, that my pair of old LCD-2's have the older slimmer pads.  So yeah, I can sorta understand the "distance" when compared to the LCD-2 r1.
 
Feb 10, 2012 at 10:42 PM Post #3,605 of 11,521
I totally gets what you are saying. As soon as placed these loaners I have here in my head felt that strange sensation inside my ears that you are calling pressure. IMO it is created by the combination of the tight seal and softness of the earpads which promotes kind of a vaccum in the ear. To me it is uncomfortable and distracting but others my no have the same experience.


I actually like it. It's similar to the effect you get with IEMs actually.
 
Feb 10, 2012 at 11:42 PM Post #3,606 of 11,521


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I actually like it. It's similar to the effect you get with IEMs actually.


I guess that's why I am not into IEMs. I tried some but could not get used to the feeling and the sound "inside my head".
 
 
 
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Feb 10, 2012 at 11:51 PM Post #3,607 of 11,521
I also get this "pressure building inside your head" feeling when I tried certain close back headphones and some IEM. Was finally able to find an IEM (TF10) that never gave me the problem. For this reason I'm hesitant to go into custom IEM. Never had pressure problems with my LCDs. 
 
Feb 11, 2012 at 12:14 AM Post #3,608 of 11,521
WarriorAnt, musicman59.
 
imo the "pressure" phenomenon, in-part is caused by the sealed baffle that is crucial for the planers, Stax included. imo what adds to the "pressure" problem, for some of us, is how and what the ear pads are made of (cloth or leather) and how they are attached to the ear cup, also how big and boomy the swings are with a large dynamic/sonic range.
 
imo the LCD-3 is trying to beat Stax at is own game, just look at how similar the ear pads look on the LCD-3 and the SR-007/009's, the biggest difference is how Stax attaches the ear pad, and of-course dynamic verses electrostatic.
 
 
Feb 11, 2012 at 12:42 AM Post #3,609 of 11,521


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I'd say they are about equally technically proficient and about equally flawed.  Which one you prefer will come down to which flaws you can live with better.  Recessed bass and boosted treble of HD800, or the dull/cloudy quality of the LCD-3 which may come from recessed upper mids and treble or maybe from something else unknown, and also the lack of a sense of air and soundstage. 


 
Quote:
Owning both for a while and having some pretty good rigs (ss and tube) to run them both, I've come to the conclusion that they both are about as technically proficient as each other. The HD800s have incredibly wide and deep out of your head imaging with uber-clear detail retrieval. The LCD-3s have the best bass/mids I've heard and sound the closest to real life of any headphone out there. Both are stark opposites to one and other and offer very different presentations.
 
The LCD-3s don't have the openness of the HD800s, but are still quite good in their own right. They image better than either r.1 or r.2 of the LCD-2s and are much more alike the HE-6s in imaging. This improvement was enough for me to sell off my HE-6s as I felt the LCD-3s now bested them in almost every category.
 
Both have incredible bass. The HD800s are deep, taught and very well defined, but lack a bit of the "true to life" weight and impact that the LCD-3s deliver (also very deep and very well controlled). Many have called the HD800s too bright...I have experienced this as well, but on gear that wasn't ideal or up to the task for them. But even on my wire-with-gain HeadAmp GS-1, the HD800's have treble that may be a bit on the brighter side of things, but always musical and rarely (if ever) strident.
 
They (HD800s and LCD-3s) are the perfect Ying and Yang flagship headphones I've heard. I prefer the LCD-3s, but I also really like my HD800s (I must have...owned them now for more than 2 years and can't see myself selling them).

 
So in terms of overall clarity and detail retrieval, the HD 800 wins out?  
 
 
Feb 11, 2012 at 1:24 AM Post #3,610 of 11,521
They really are opposite Yin/Yang type phones.  The HD800 has more clarity and detail retreval ability, at the expense of the very warmth, weight and smoothness that the LCD-3 excels at. 
 
It's as if they have opposite strengths and got those strengths by sacrificing opposite weaknesses.  I personally would like to see a phone in the middle.  The HE500 is pretty close to that but may not be quite as technically proficient.  It's darn close though and maybe it is (I haven't A/B'd them)
 
Feb 11, 2012 at 1:29 AM Post #3,611 of 11,521


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imo the LCD-3 is trying to beat Stax at is own game, just look at how similar the ear pads look on the LCD-3 and the SR-007/009's, the biggest difference is how Stax attaches the ear pad, and of-course dynamic verses electrostatic.
 


i agree, and I agree with your idea about the pressure maybe being the sealed baffle necessity, but the pad shape is probably a coincidence.  I have read that they (and know they must have from experience swapping a lot of pads) tried many pad shapes before settling on that one.  Maybe they got inspired by those, but they have that similar flat, fat edge because the LCD driver is rectangular. 
 
but I bet the Audeze guys like the sound of the O2
wink.gif

 
Feb 11, 2012 at 3:17 AM Post #3,612 of 11,521
The O2 is indeed nice and represents a nice departure from most TOTL headphones that simply sound too ****-ing bright. I've always thought that both LCD2 and LCD3 and the O2 share the same genes and are definitely after the same sonic signature. 
 
As for the 007 vs LCD3, I think nothing is perfect in this world. The 007 may provide extremely high fidelity and delicate sound coupled with the best transient response in headphones but I've honestly never heard a Stax system that provides a proper sense of density and immediacy/impact. They can sound a bit too ethereal sometimes. The LCD3 on the other hand may not sound as detailed and its soundstage is definitely lacking compared to the 007 (though I feel the R10 and HD800 offer better soundstage than the 007) but it does have a grounded realism that is missing in the 007. Sigh... it's such a pickle. 
 
Well, I do really need to hear the 009 one of these days. If it can fix some of those issues with the 007, I think it will be THE ultimate headphone. Similarly, I bet the LCD3 without its veiled midrange will be one heck of a headphone. 
 
Feb 11, 2012 at 7:12 AM Post #3,613 of 11,521


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The O2 is indeed nice and represents a nice departure from most TOTL headphones that simply sound too ****-ing bright. I've always thought that both LCD2 and LCD3 and the O2 share the same genes and are definitely after the same sonic signature. 
 
As for the 007 vs LCD3, I think nothing is perfect in this world. The 007 may provide extremely high fidelity and delicate sound coupled with the best transient response in headphones but I've honestly never heard a Stax system that provides a proper sense of density and immediacy/impact. They can sound a bit too ethereal sometimes. The LCD3 on the other hand may not sound as detailed and its soundstage is definitely lacking compared to the 007 (though I feel the R10 and HD800 offer better soundstage than the 007) but it does have a grounded realism that is missing in the 007. Sigh... it's such a pickle. 
 
Well, I do really need to hear the 009 one of these days. If it can fix some of those issues with the 007, I think it will be THE ultimate headphone. Similarly, I bet the LCD3 without its veiled midrange will be one heck of a headphone. 



I think we feel the same way about these things. The SR-007mk1 is still one of my absolute favorite headphones. Its tonal balance, to me, is perfect. Moreso than even the mighty SR-009 (caveat: in my system, using both the KGSS and SRM-717. No BHSE or Realizer at this time, sadly). With regard to the SR-009 especially, I have never come across another headphone that presents music as unobtrusively, that gets out of the way more thoroughly than the SR-009. Coupled with its extreme comfort, I think the biggest strength of the SR-009 is that you can forget its existence for a brief moment or two. That's quite a feat for a headphone! It's the closest thing to an "open window" onto music I've yet heard. The SR-007mk1 seems a tiny bit dark in comparison, but I like that. This is relative though: on the KGSS the SR-007mk1 is NOT a dark headphone. It's quite lively. I think most people who complain about it being overly dark are underamping it, tbo.
 
The LCD-2 rev. 1 and LCD-3 definitely make their presence known, definitely impart a certain quality to music. It's something I have to be in the mood for. When I am in the mood though, nothing else will do. The do "thick, lush, laid-back" more adeptly than any of their rivals. It's their forte.
 
Also: When it comes to imparting that sense of "thereness," I'm finding that our definitions all differ as to just what contributes to it. The Realizer, from my readings, seems to be the ultimate soundstaging device. It simulates listening to your speakers, and that's damned impressive. For me though, it's not always about that room-like presentation. Sometimes listening to a set of speakers or a simulation of them isn't going to be my idea of the music being "present." For me it has to do with the quality or character of the sound itself, a certain texture or weight it carries. Electrostatic technology, for all of its benefits, just can't impart this sense of presence in my brain. Alternatively, dynamics just can't do that vaporous and effortless sound that 'stats can. I love both thoroughly, and my mood often shifts as to what sort of presentation I want to hear.
 
The piezoelectric Heil-type driver in the H2+ is very intriguing to me, because it seems to be capable of that effortless, thoroughly detailed sound but also able to convey a sense of weight. I hope more is done with that technology in the future, because the H2+ is FAR from perfect. Far, far from it.
 
Feb 11, 2012 at 9:35 AM Post #3,614 of 11,521
http://audeze.com/lcd-3-update
 
Update from Audeze. Good to see that they are acknowledging the issue and trying to fix it. 
 
I'm interesting in buying the LCD-3's. How long do people think I should wait in order to get a non-veiled issue-free LCD-3? 
 

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