[MacedonianHero]

Peter, please correct me if I'm wrong, but these were the first Audeze headphones you've heard? Coming from the HD800s and HE-6s, yes the upper mids/treble would seem pushed back in comparison (with any Audeze headphone).

 

[n3rdling]

^Yet another who has similar feelings to purrin.  Purrin are you planning on measuring another set of LCD3s to see if product variation may very well be the issue here?

 

[sillysally]

Peter, you are correct.
 
Edit add; yes the LCD-3 was the first pair of the LCD line. But it was more than just the upper mids.
 
And yes I agree with InnerSpace, in that "felt trapped and held down under a tight layer of plastic", that is one way of putting it.

 

[InnerSpace]

My original comment about Saran Wrap was not about a veil or excessive treble shelving.  IMO those are not LCD-3 problems.  Saran Wrap is highly transparent, after all.
 
The comment was about dynamic nuance.  I felt - in terms of punctuation and expression and microdynamics - the music felt trapped and held down under a tight layer of plastic.  I could "see" the music squashing up against the layer, kind of desperate to get free.

 

[MacedonianHero]

 
Quote:

Peter, please correct me if I'm wrong, but these were the first Audeze headphones you've heard? Coming from the HD800s and HE-6s, yes the upper mids/treble would seem pushed back in comparison (with any Audeze headphone).

 
Quote:

Peter, you are correct.

Thank you Peter.
 


Quote:

^Yet another who has similar feelings to purrin.  Purrin are you planning on measuring another set of LCD3s to see if product variation may very well be the issue here?

 
Not sure what your agenda is here, but please take it back to the Stax thread...sheesh.  I'd take the LCD-3 (or LCD-2, or HD800, or T1 or HE-6) over any version of the O2 any day of the week. I wonder why some in the mafia is so infatuated with Audeze headphones? I wonder....
 

 

[maverickronin]

Well, Tyll's got some new data.
 
This one looks good...
 
This one doesn't...
 
The FR is rougher, the THD+N on the left channel at 90dB is nearly 1% through most of the range, the 30Hz square wave looks a bit over damped, and at 300Hz it rings like a bell.
 
This would definitely explain the differing reports.  I think someone at Audeze needs to actually listen to the damn things before they go out the door.  I'd guess they don't do too much testing on them.  That smoothed FR graph that ships with them is probably the only thing a technician sees before its boxed and shipped...

 

[MacedonianHero]

 
Quote:

Well, Tyll's got some new data.
 
This one looks good...
 
This one doesn't...
 
The FR is rougher, the THD+N on the left channel at 90dB is nearly 1% through most of the range, the 30Hz square wave looks a bit over damped, and at 300Hz it rings like a bell.
 
This would definitely explain the differing reports.  I think someone at Audeze needs to actually listen to the damn things before they go out the door.  I'd guess they don't do too much testing on them.  That smoothed FR graph that ships with them is probably the only thing a technician sees before its boxed and shipped...

 
Since we're comparing different headphones:

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT1SN3964.pdf
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT1.pdf
 
or
 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR007.pdf
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR007SZ31576.pdf
 
or
 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR009.pdf
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR009SZ91278.pdf
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR009SZ91278afterburnin.pdf
 
Then there's always this little thing to consider:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANOVA_gauge_R%26R
 
 
 
 

 

[maverickronin]

Beyer is pretty awful at that too (look at these T5ps...) but its not fair to compare two different reversions of something when specific changes are made at a specific point and its not random variation.
 
Audeze did that before with the Rev1 and Rev2 and the Rev1 with the new pads and the Rev2 measure far more similarly than those two LCD-3s.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Quote:

Beyer is pretty awful at that too (look at these T5ps...) but its not fair to compare two different reversions of something when specific changes are made at a specific point and its not random variation.
 
Audeze did that before with the Rev1 and Rev2 and the Rev1 with the new pads and the Rev2 measure far more similarly than those two LCD-3s.

I would be very interested to see the same pair of headphones measured a few times. That would include, taking them off the head and placing them back on. Just to see how much of the variability is from the measurement system.
 
Quick recap:
 
Total variability = variability of the gage + variability of the operator taking the measurement + variability of the items being measured. In a "good" measurement system the total variability of the gage+operator should be less than 10% of the overall variability.
 

 

[n3rdling]

To get an idea of variance in the measurement system you'd actually want to keep the headphones exactly as they are and measure a few times (which I believe Tyll does anyways and then averages at the end).  If you take the headphones off and place them a little differently than before you'll get some change in the treble measurements as Tyll and others have mentioned in the past.
 
Thanks for the new measurement links on the LCD3.  That is quite a difference.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Quote:

To get an idea of variance in the measurement system you'd actually want to keep the headphones exactly as they are and measure a few times (which I believe Tyll does anyways and then averages at the end).  If you take the headphones off and place them a little differently than before you'll get some change in the treble measurements as Tyll and others have mentioned in the past.
 
Thanks for the new measurement links on the LCD3.  That is quite a difference.

 
That would only give you the variance of the gage, not the entire measurement system...which includes the operator. Taking them off and replacing them is very valid and needed to perform a true Gage R&R.
 
The person taking the measurement IS part of the measurement system!

 

[jax]

Quote:

 
 
Since we're comparing different headphones:

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT1SN3964.pdf
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT1.pdf
 
or
 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR007.pdf
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR007SZ31576.pdf
 
or
 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR009.pdf
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR009SZ91278.pdf
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR009SZ91278afterburnin.pdf
 
Then there's always this little thing to consider:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANOVA_gauge_R%26R
 
 
 
 

I'm not sure if I'm the only one who might be missing your point through your posts and counterpoints here. Would you make this bit more clear what you are suggesting? It seems to me that you are trying to refute the input of anyone and everyone who might be suggesting that there could be a significant production variance in the LCD-3's. And your support for this is that you and four or five others like these headphones exceedingly and have posted as much? Am I missing your intention? 

 

[MacedonianHero]

Simply as I've stated. Just that there are variations of many headphones as shown in my post. I'm not refuting that there are variations, just that this may be also prominent with many other headphones as well.
 

 

[n3rdling]

The examples don't make sense.  The O2mk1 is not the same headphone as the O2mk2.5 which has been repeated to you about 5 times now.  One SR009 is pre revision and the other is post revision - if you recall there was an issue early on with the first SR009s which delayed shipment to the US as Stax had to fix the issue before sending any more sets out.  As for the T1, I don't think there was ever an official word from Beyer on the matter but isn't it generally accepted that they went through a revision?  Compare the T1s pre and post revision to each other instead.

 

[Asr]

Quote:

I think, ASR, you may not be giving the Audezes a fair at-home test compared to your electrostatic system, since you there are tubes in the BHSE but the GS-X amp for the Audezes is solid state.
 
The magic I hear in the Audezes (both lcd2R2 and lcd3) really only comes with tubes the more I listen. The tubed amps just sort of focus things and provide a level of grip that I don't get with solid state.
All the images are just fixed and grounded better with the tubes, with a solid foundation, where a vocal sounds like it's part of a whole human, not just a floaty voice in space. (And pretty much the same with instruments,
with a more developed sound.) And there is a more colorful texture with the tubes also.
 
I did read you heard the Audeze with a Cavelli tube amp at RMAF, but it sounds like the source was an iPad or some other computer source, and I think a good CD source is needed.
 
So if I'm reading things right, you have not heard the Audezes with a good tube amp and a good CD source. (Correct me please if I'm wrong.)

 
If you'd like me to level the playing field between the LCD-3 and Stax OII MKI for only solid-state amps, I could state that I think the OII on the HeadAmp KGSS is capable of sounding better in most ways than the LCD-3 on the GS-X, even though I no longer have the KGSS for a direct comparison. Btw, the BHSE is technically a hybrid amp, not a pure tube amp.
 
The only tube amp experience I've had with any Audeze headphones was the LCD-2 r2 on an Eddie Current Balancing Act sourced by an Ayon Skylla at the Seattle August meet last year - and I thought that was the best I'd heard out of the LCD-2 r2 until then. Other than that though, I haven't properly heard an Audeze headphone amped by a tube amp on my own system. Whether that's fair to my Audeze headphones or not is honestly irrelevant to me though, as I'm not interested in owning a tube amp, nor am I really interested in hearing the LCD-3 on one either. The GS-X is the only amp that I currently care about and I'm just here to report my LCD-3 experience with it.
 
I was actually interested in buying a Liquid Fire at one point but have since been turned off to Cavalli Audio and will likely never buy anything from them now.