[Danz03]

It's a bit like how some people would defend valve amps fiercely when I called them highly colored with added distortions by saying how the modern valves are more or less distortion free. In my opinion, the only reason for using valve equipment is because of the distortion and colorations, I personally own a lot of valve microphones and preamps to add characters to the recorded sound, if the valve equipment are distortion free or accurate, I really have no use for them, I might as well use solid state mics or preamps. The vintage valves are what give electric guitars their unique warm distorted sound, if valves don't have distortions, they are worthless to me. Same as headphones, accurate phones and speakers are only useful for monitoring music or for mixing or mastering , in fact a lot of singers or musicians deliberately tune their IEMs to emphasis on the frequency range of their voice or instrument. I personally use the hd800 when I'm editing vocal takes or when I'm removing artifacts from instrument tracks as they are so revealing, they are of no use for me in doing that if they are accurate sounding. So I agreed it's a bit pointless for people defending the Stax, HE6, or HD800, for being bass light, inaccurate or unbalanced, just like one can call the LCD-2 uninspiring, lack in details, have narrow soundstage or just plain boring, that's the character of being accurate sounding.

No headphone is completely accurate. However, I was speaking about the bass on the LCD3 vs HD800 and 009. When doing music production it is as close to reference as you can get and this is confirmed when I move my work to speakers. Like I've mentioned before, it is not only my opinion but the opinion of many people in the EDM industry, some I consider my friends. It has the perfect decay and impact for judgement when producing.
It may have been the fault of the amplifier but I've been PMing head-fiers that own the 009s and BHSEs, T2s,etc, and they come to the same conclusion as me. It is the character of the 009 and nothing will change that. The 007mkI has more quantity in its bass but it also depends on the seal that you get with the ear pads. This is why the Audeze cans have superior bass, the seal is critical to it. If the 009 did not have the $5k price tag, many people would not be defending it and would acknowledge that the little brother, 007mkI, is just technically better.

On the topic of frequency response graphs:
I like reading data from frequency graphs as much as the next person (and I am  an engineer  by profession as you are MH, data is our livelihood) but my ears sometimes tell me a different story. I still think that the measurements are inaccurate to what we hear because of factors such as ear pad, seal, internal reflections, etc.

 

[dukeskd]

It's a bit like how some people would defend valve amps fiercely when I called them highly colored with added distortions by saying how the modern valves are more or less distortion free. In my opinion, the only reason for using valve equipment is because of the distortion and colorations, I personally own a lot of valve microphones and preamps to add characters to the recorded sound, if the valve equipment are distortion free or accurate, I really have no use for them, I might as well use solid state mics or preamps. The vintage valves are what give electric guitars their unique warm distorted sound, if valves don't have distortions, they are worthless to me. Same as headphones, accurate phones and speakers are only useful for monitoring music or for mixing or mastering , in fact a lot of singers or musicians deliberately tune their IEMs to emphasis on the frequency range of their voice or instrument. I personally use the hd800 when I'm editing vocal takes or when I'm removing artifacts from instrument tracks as they are so revealing, they are of no use for me in doing that if they are accurate sounding.

Exactly! I am not a fan of an amp that adds any kind of its own coloration to the sound, just not my cup of tea.
If I thought the HD800 was so horrible, it would have left the stable a long time ago, but it hasn't. As you mention, when working with vocals or just listening to final edits of a song, the detail extraction level is just astounding on the HD800s. They reveal artifacts that my other cans do not even come close to, and it is helped by the great imaging. The 009 on the other hand, for $5k, I expect it to be better than the 007.

So I agreed it's a bit pointless for people defending the Stax, HE6, or HD800, for being bass light, inaccurate or unbalanced, just like one can call the LCD-2 uninspiring, lack in details, have narrow soundstage or just plain boring, that's the character of being accurate sounding.

 
A Big +1

 

[Danz03]

I must admit I do love how tube amps sounds, technically, amps with vintage tubes do add even harmonic distortions that is very musical, warm and pleasant to listening to, but I tend not to use them at all so I'd be able to hear the un-enhanced music, warts and all, no point mixing something that only sounds good on one particular system. If I were to use valve equipment, I'd use them in the recording stage so the warm tube sound can be enjoyed by all instead of just me. I take it that unlike hip hop or RnB, EDM has a more industrial or a 'cold' sound which somehow doesn't quite work with the warmth of tubes.

Yes, the HD800 are very revealing, but do the general public really want to hear the little artifacts in a song? Like the sample splice artifacts on Adele's voice at the beginning of 'rolling in the deep', or the tape hiss, guitar amp noise or punch in artifacts on a lot of older rock records. So a lot of the posters on this thread are probably right, SR009 and HD800 only work well on well recorded and mastered records, whereas the LCD-2 would be fine for almost anything, and LCD-3 is similar but slightly more fussy with the source.

Exactly! I am not a fan of an amp that adds any kind of its own coloration to the sound, just not my cup of tea.
If I thought the HD800 was so horrible, it would have left the stable a long time ago, but it hasn't.

A Big +1

 

[jonstatt]

   
Is that not the same as with all other phones as well. The LCD's don't do bass like speakers either IMO.

 
No headphone can do bass like speakers. You FEEL bass. Especially sub-bass which can move/affect your whole body. You are pushing enough air to interact with the whole room. A headphone sits on your ears and so of course while it may reach low down will never induce that interaction with your entire body.  As that physical element is missing, the effect of a headphone can be argued to be more pure...extracting only the sound elements and strip out the physical affects. But I think many like to be moved!!

 

[Danz03]

As in my reply to this post earlier, they can, especially the LCD-2 (haven't tried it with my LCD-3 yet though), if you use it with Symth realizer and LFE.

No headphone can do bass like speakers. You FEEL bass. Especially sub-bass which can move/affect your whole body. You are pushing enough air to interact with the whole room. A headphone sits on your ears and so of course while it may reach low down will never induce that interaction with your entire body.  As that physical element is missing, the effect of a headphone can be argued to be more pure...extracting only the sound elements and strip out the physical affects. But I think many like to be moved!!

 

[Zoom25]

   
No headphone can do bass like speakers. You FEEL bass. Especially sub-bass which can move/affect your whole body. You are pushing enough air to interact with the whole room. A headphone sits on your ears and so of course while it may reach low down will never induce that interaction with your entire body.  As that physical element is missing, the effect of a headphone can be argued to be more pure...extracting only the sound elements and strip out the physical affects. But I think many like to be moved!!

 
Closest thing you can get to subwoofer and speakers are Denon/Fostex. D2000 for movies all the way for movies over all my planars.

 

[jonstatt]

As in my reply to this post earlier, they can, especially the LCD-2 (haven't tried it with my LCD-3 yet though), if you use it with Symth realizer and LFE.

 
If I listen to electronica on my main Kef reference 4.2 speakers and Velodyne DD-18 sub, the bass is enough to feel it through my toes, legs, body....the floor and sofa move with the music. No matter what you do on your head, you cannot replicate that aspect of bass. I do appreciate what you are saying about the realizer and of course having headphones that can reach down low, helps you get "somewhere" near.....but it's not the same. As mentioned above the old Denons like the D7000 can give even more impact if you wanted that, but it's not the same as having your whole body in-sync with the bass line.

 

[jonstatt]

Also to comment on the HD800 vs LCD-3 pro's con's topic.
 
I am a musician and I found the LCD-2 and LCD-3 to very closely replicate that timbre of a piano and guitar. It felt natural, realistic, and above all comfortable for very long listens.
 
On the other hand the HD800 felt like someone had put a microscope over the instrument and I was hearing all the things that should be subtle background aspects (such as the mechanics of the piano keys, or the noise of a pick on guitar string) in the foreground and were extremely distracting.
 
I understand the appeal of the HD800 but I feel it is very analytical and to my ears over pronounces treble content to the point of distraction. Whereas the LCD-2/3 are to my ears more musical and natural. I can only compare for the instruments I spend all my time with. When I chose my headphones I was deliberately looking to find those that could replicate those instruments just as I hear them in reality.

 

[dleblanc343]

  No headphone is completely accurate. However, I was speaking about the bass on the LCD3 vs HD800 and 009. When doing music production it is as close to reference as you can get and this is confirmed when I move my work to speakers. Like I've mentioned before, it is not only my opinion but the opinion of many people in the EDM industry, some I consider my friends. It has the perfect decay and impact for judgement when producing.

Ah, well that's where the difference lies. I compose scores and orchestrated pieces, and the LCD3 didn't compete with the HD800 when it came time to create a more believable sound scape.

 

[dukeskd]

  Ah, well that's where the difference lies. I compose scores and orchestrated pieces, and the LCD3 didn't compete with the HD800 when it came time to create a more believable sound scape.

Agreed. LCD3 would be horrible for sound track compositions, I also prefer the HD800 for that or HE6. Going back to the first post of this discussion, it all depends on the genre.

 

[thegrobe]

No headphone can do bass like speakers. You FEEL bass. Especially sub-bass which can move/affect your whole body. You are pushing enough air to interact with the whole room. A headphone sits on your ears and so of course while it may reach low down will never induce that interaction with your entire body.  As that physical element is missing, the effect of a headphone can be argued to be more pure...extracting only the sound elements and strip out the physical affects. But I think many like to be moved!!

My headphone rig doubles as speaker rig with a Decware CSP3 preamp, and Taboo mk3 amp. The preamp has a mono out which feeds a powered subwoofer for speaker use.

I can leave that sub on for headphone use, it adds a little visceral feel to the room, a little touch of rumble and sub-bass you can feel. It makes for an interesting addition to headphone session. I don't always turn it on, but for certain music, it works well. If you have the combination of equipment to try it, I recommend giving it a go.

 

[SHAHZADA123]

My headphone rig doubles as speaker rig with a Decware CSP3 preamp, and Taboo mk3 amp. The preamp has a mono out which feeds a powered subwoofer for speaker use.

I can leave that sub on for headphone use, it adds a little visceral feel to the room, a little touch of rumble and sub-bass you can feel. It makes for an interesting addition to headphone session. I don't always turn it on, but for certain music, it works well. If you have the combination of equipment to try it, I recommend giving it a go.

Interesting. Should give it a try

 

[XVampireX]

All the LCD-3 haters, please get out of here.

 

[MacedonianHero]

  Lol at all the HD800 'bass lacking' comments. It's a chameleon of your rig-not much more. I've heard my HD800 go from extremely weak sounding bass to absolutely thumping-just by changing between a few dacs (using the same Bryston BHA-1 amp). That's to say nothing of amp rolling with them either. I used to feel that the Senns were inadequate with rock, pop, r&b, and electronica-til I got my chain up to snuff. Also-the Auditor was never part of said chain.
 
-Daniel

Agreed. On the right amp, both the SR-009 and the HD800s bring the bass. Play them on sub-par gear (and I have) and the results vary at best.

 

[OPR8R]

  Also to comment on the HD800 vs LCD-3 pro's con's topic.
 
I am a musician and I found the LCD-2 and LCD-3 to very closely replicate that timbre of a piano and guitar. It felt natural, realistic, and above all comfortable for very long listens.
 
On the other hand the HD800 felt like someone had put a microscope over the instrument and I was hearing all the things that should be subtle background aspects (such as the mechanics of the piano keys, or the noise of a pick on guitar string) in the foreground and were extremely distracting.
 
I understand the appeal of the HD800 but I feel it is very analytical and to my ears over pronounces treble content to the point of distraction. Whereas the LCD-2/3 are to my ears more musical and natural. I can only compare for the instruments I spend all my time with. When I chose my headphones I was deliberately looking to find those that could replicate those instruments just as I hear them in reality.

 
Growing up, I would always hear people say that if an eagle could see any better, its vision would be impaired by being able to see so many particulates in the air.  At that point I suppose the eagle's eye would be "too sharp" for its purpose. 
 
Some headphones are like microscopes, when what is needed is a fine wide angle lens.  Microscopes are fun, and with them you can learn a lot about the thing at which you're looking, but it's hard to appreciate art through a microscope.