Dec 25, 2011 at 10:44 PM Post #2,716 of 11,522


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I believe you are correct when it comes to the LCD-3 and amp synergy.  It does seem to need not just more power than the LCD-2 but also something more to flesh it out and really make it sing. The pads on the LCD-3 are definitely softer. The leather is softer and the foam is more forgiving. Because of this when you first put them on they feel more comfortable but after a short time to me they began to feel the same as the LCD-2.
Upon a first listen with the LCD-3 one might feel that they are not all that different from the LCD-2 this is because they both share the same audeze ortho goodness and that comes through right away,  but the differences are improvements and after listening for an extended time it is clear they are preferable.
 
The bass with the LCD-3 is a little cleaner, more articulate, and a touch more weight which establishes it to be better than the LCD-2 but the LCD-2 still has very impressive bass. It hasn't gone anywhere. It is still valid and exciting as it ever was.  The LCD-3 has a wider more dimensional soundstage which is deeper.  There is less of a veil overall to the sonic landscape and it has faster transients than the LCD-2.  Less veil and faster transient response is what seems to give the LCD-3 a deeper more dimensional sonic landscape.   The LCD-3 has a naturally wider soundstage than the LCD-2. The upper region is extended a bit more and it is cleaner, more delicate and smoother than the LCD-2.  These improvements are at the same time significant and yet they do not depart drastically from the LCD-2 but they do make the LCD-3 more engaging and preferable.  
 
All this doesn't make the LCD-2 pale in comparison, just the opposite. It takes the LCD-3 improvements to show one just how very good the LCD-2 really is and what a bargain it is at 1K less.  The LCD-3 creates a contrast that really lets one see/hear how good the LCD-2  is, which is a nice thing to discover because the introduction of the LCD-3 and its price tag might make some folks feel they have been left behind. They have not. Both headphones are in the same arena so to speak and one of them is 1K easier on the wallet and perhaps easier to match with a larger circle of amplification. In this regard the LCD-2 now seems to be the easy going member of the Audeze family and a bargain at that.
 
 
 
 




 

 


I agree with pretty much all of your comments here in your entire post. I also bolded out a few sections that I also would like to bring up. I've mentioned before that the LCD-3s are not as good as the LCD-2s by a factor of 2x (even though the price difference is). I hold the LCD-2s (especially rev. 2) in such high esteem that I do prefer them to my HD800s, T1s, Ed.8LEs, and HE-6s. All more expensive headphones and fantastic flagships.
 
The "easy going member of the family" comment is also spot on too. The LCD-2s (either revision) sounded great out of almost everything. Yes they did scale up with better sources/dacs/amps/tubes/power/etc..., but they still sounded just great with almost anything I plugged them into and any recording I threw at it. The LCD-3s are a tougher nut to crack by a good margin. Not just upfront gear, but the recording quality you select as well. It is less forgiving of poor sources. But when you finally crack this nut, it does reward you with audio bliss IMO. Not to say that the LCD-2s aren't rewarding, because under $1900, they are my favourites.
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Dec 25, 2011 at 10:50 PM Post #2,717 of 11,522


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It's hard to put a sane monetary value on things in this hobby. It is easy to be overcome by the lust which our ears are constantly tempting us into spending.   Is the LCD-2 worth 1K or is that just insane to pay that much?    It is most likely insane to pay 1K for any headphone when speakers are simply so much better.  Having said that and then freely entering the paradigm of headphones with a sincere attempt to find value the LCD-2 can be argued to be worth 1K over most of it's competition.  But 2K for the LCD-3?   1.5K to me is the more correct value.  I know the pricing of any piece of gear these days is a slippery slope fueled by a combination of quality and desire and thus makes the argument an endless onslaught between reason and technical advancement but for me from the vantage of my own private Idaho 1.5K is the correct value.


We're on a roll of agreements tonight. I think $1K for a pair of headphones is a bit silly, but since that's the reality of the marketplace, it is what it is. I agree that $1500ish would be a better price range for the LCD-3s. The improvements are not spectacularly different to make them 2x better. A testament to the LCD-2s too. I'm also not a fan of the trend of high end headphones following that of speakers (SR009s anyone?) in terms of pricing as well.
 
 
 
Dec 26, 2011 at 12:57 AM Post #2,718 of 11,522

Hi. My name is Olias, and my LCD-3 has cellophane wrapped around the mids.

 

I've spoken with WarriorAnt (and others) extensively about our LCD-3s, and several of us seem to share a similar impression: there is so much to like about these cans, but there's a flaw in the tonality of the mids of our headphones that cannot be ignored.

 

Personally, I love the Audez'e house sound. I adored the LCD-2.2. I have excellent gear that is reputed to have great synergy with the LCD-3. I have burned the headphones in for several hundred hours, and even though I'd planned on returning them to Audez'e several weeks ago, I waited until my Liquid Fire arrived just in case inadequate amping was involved. None of these factors has changed the fact that my LCD-3 just doesn’t sound right.

 

That said, there are many, many people here whose opinions I respect that find no such flaw in their LCD-3s. I have therefore decided that sample variance is the most likely culprit, and that I happened to receive a poor sample. I will FINALLY be sending them back for testing and analysis on Tuesday. Hopefully, what comes back is a fully functional LCD-3, because I very much want this headphone in my rig.

 
Dec 26, 2011 at 4:02 AM Post #2,719 of 11,522
My suggestions on driving LCD3s, 1.balanced, 2. solid state. I've tried LCD3s on several nice tube amps with nice tubes, but so far the best I've heard with LCD3s is still a solid state.
 
Dec 26, 2011 at 7:47 AM Post #2,721 of 11,522
I just tried the SR009 on the Smyth Realiser and the effect is ridiculous. I thought I was listening to my speakers while they were off.  And I haven't even  started PRIR with my home theatre yet. Just the two channel PRIR stunned me. I will do a HPEQ on the LCD3 with Liquid Fire on Wednesday and see how it fares with the 009.  Spending US$3K on it should be a no brainer. If you think the improvement of LCD3 over LCD2 is worth US$1K, the Realiser should be worth like 100K.
 
Dec 26, 2011 at 9:14 AM Post #2,723 of 11,522


Quote:
I just tried the SR009 on the Smyth Realiser and the effect is ridiculous. I thought I was listening to my speakers while they were off.  And I haven't even  started PRIR with my home theatre yet. Just the two channel PRIR stunned me. I will do a HPEQ on the LCD3 with Liquid Fire on Wednesday and see how it fares with the 009.  Spending US$3K on it should be a no brainer. If you think the improvement of LCD3 over LCD2 is worth US$1K, the Realiser should be worth like 100K.



So what exactly is the difference with the Realiser? better soundstage? I should think the SQ remains the same.
 
Dec 26, 2011 at 9:57 AM Post #2,724 of 11,522


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... I have burned the headphones in for several hundred hours, and even though I'd planned on returning them to Audez'e several weeks ago, I waited until my Liquid Fire arrived just in case inadequate amping was involved. None of these factors has changed the fact that my LCD-3 just doesn’t sound right...



If you only have 200-300 hrs of burn-in, you did not fully burn them in.  I say that not to be critical of you but to be helpful based on my experiences with this headphone.  I had several of the issues being discussed here with my LCD3 but I continued to burn my pair in for a full month 24/7.  After a month of burn-in, the issues disintegrated.  When my 3's had 2 weeks of full burn-in, they still did not sound right to my ears.  It was sometime between the 3rd and 4th week of burn-in that I finally liked what I was hearing using the same CD tracks as a reference.  If you have say 300 hrs on them and you listen to them on a daily basis and conclude that after several days of additional burn-in that they are not changing so the burn-in must be complete, you would be right and wrong at the same time.  How is that so?   (1) You would right that it had not changed much or even at all and (2) you would be wrong that the headphones have stopped changing from burn-in because it takes a lot of time (more than a few days) to make a small change in sound and this is especially true after the initial changes in the first few days of burn-in. 
 
I'm sure some people will post snide remarks about burn-in and the psychological effects of the brain becoming accustomed to the sound and those posts will be respectfully ignored.   I'm just trying to be helpful to those that are experiencing issues with their LCD3.  I can accept that the LCD3 may not be for everyone and it is also possible that their are some QC issues, but until you have tried burning them in 24/7 for a month, then IMO you haven't heard them at their best.  I think Audeze and its dealers should extend the trial period to something like 6 weeks (especially considering the cost of this headphone) so that we can fully burn-in the 3's and then judge them for what they are.  If Audeze and its dealers were to do something like this, I think it would take the pressure off of us to make a premature decision and to their benefit perhaps less returns.
 
As a side note, being the engineering specialist that I am, I wonder what analysis is being done by Audeze on their customer returned headphones. If it were me running the show at Audeze, I would take a known good pair of LCD3s to use as my reference and call it my "A" sample and call the customer returned samples B1, B2, B3 etc.  I would do subjective listening tests (using specific reference tracks of music and perhaps a listening panel of golden ears within the company and make sure that they take notes of what they hear) and also I would take FR & waterfall plot measurements of both "A" and "B" for comparison.  I would use the listening tests mainly to confirm that I can hear what my customers are complaining about.  I would then try to focus on the differences in the objective measurements.  I would then burn-in the B samples in intervals of 100 hrs up to 700 hrs (or longer) and at each 100 hr interval, perform the same listening tests and measurements as I did pre-burn-in.  If at any of the 100 hr intervals, the B samples improve to the point that they sound the same and measure the same as the reference "A" sample then I would repeat the process on more B samples to make sure the improvements are repeatable.  If repeatable, I would then change the owners manual to reflect the amount of burn-in required and I might change the trial period to reflect the number of hours needed to hear them at their best.
 
If at the end of the 700 hrs of burn-in, the listening panel concludes that no improvement took place and the objective test measurements confirm this, I would start a comparison tear down of the "A" and "B" samples to determine the root cause of the differences.  Perhaps the root cause is dimensional differences or physical characteristics such as driver stiffness, or there could be differences caused by variations in the assembly process.  It also could be a combination of things.    Once the differences between A and B are determined,  I would see about tightening up the tolerances of those characteristics that are different.  I might run a Design of Experiments (DOE) using Six Sigma methods to determine the key characteristics and levels needed to output a good headphone based an output of FR and waterfall measurements.  I doubt whether anything like this is being done by Audeze or any of their competitors but considering that this is a $2000 headphone and the widespread response to it, I don't think it's out of the question.
 
 
Dec 26, 2011 at 10:16 AM Post #2,725 of 11,522
I'm considering upgrading my HeadRoom Triple Stack (BUDA/UDAC/DPS) to the Antelope Zodiac + RSA Dark Star for my LCD3.

Thoughts anyone?
 
Dec 26, 2011 at 11:45 AM Post #2,726 of 11,522
Quote:
I just tried the SR009 on the Smyth Realiser and the effect is ridiculous. I thought I was listening to my speakers while they were off.  And I haven't even  started PRIR with my home theatre yet. Just the two channel PRIR stunned me. I will do a HPEQ on the LCD3 with Liquid Fire on Wednesday and see how it fares with the 009.  Spending US$3K on it should be a no brainer. If you think the improvement of LCD3 over LCD2 is worth US$1K, the Realiser should be worth like 100K.


So does this replace your K-01 or is it still part of the chain?  
 
 
Dec 26, 2011 at 12:50 PM Post #2,730 of 11,522


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I am betting 800 hours for proper burn in of the LCD3. You can call, raise or fold.



I'll call you on this hand since I'm close to that mark and my '3s sound great.
 
 

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