[oarnura]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aevum /img/forum/go_quote.gif its dual driver, but what driver type ? armature ?

Apple - iPod - In-Ear Headphones
Technical Specifications
Frequency response: 5Hz to 21kHz
Impedance (at 100Hz): 23 ohms
Sensitivity (at 100Hz): 109 dB SPL/mW
Drivers: Custom two-way balanced armature (woofer and tweeter in each earpiece)

 

[jinx20001]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taikero /img/forum/go_quote.gif @ jinx20001: The Atrio M5 and Image X10 completely refute your points. In addition, the Etymotic HF5 has that "fast", "tight" bass you speak of, but I don't have to listen carefully for it. It may not hit as hard as the X10/M5, but it's absolutely more accurate and has a much better texture and sound to it than either of the above. As for "the flaws single ''armatures'' have are really obvious and people choose to ignore them for some reason".....Multiple armature IEMs also have tons of problems, especially in their crossovers. A poorly built crossover matched to the best two or three armatures you can come up with will make an IEM sound like absolute junk. When it comes to teamwork, even in electronics, you're only as strong as your weakest link. Now, this isn't to say I don't like dual or triple armature IEMs. I do. However, the number of drivers doesn't matter at all. What matters is the freakin' sound coming out of the IEM. If it sucks, it sucks, no matter how many drivers are there.

the atrio m5 is a dynamic design so thats out of the question. and you will find the x10 is not exactly bass heavy, its warm yes but bass heavy no. oh and if you can name 1 multi ''armature'', ill say again ''ARMATURE'' designed earphone with a poorly built crossover that sounds like absolute junk please do point it out...and its no good saying stupid things like super fi 5 EB because its not multi armature. and the super fi 5 pro may not be perfect but they are very very far from junk. so dont say ''especially in the crossovers'' if you have no evidence to prove this. i mean please do point some headphones out with a poorly made crossover and do explain to us all what effects it has that you can notice.

i think you will find that its very very hard to find a multi driver armature earphone that sounds like junk due to the crossover, and ill tell you why... its very hard for a manufacturer to make a poor crossover design, it only has one job to do and if manufacturers could not make a crossover work well then they wouldnt be stepping up to the challenge of making multi driver earphones.

edit: i mean again, your another one that has just said ''it does'nt matter how many drivers there are''. i mean what earphones are you guys listening to, the improvements multi drivers make well outbalances the cons they provide. i mean yeh phase cohesion may come into play but again can you really really notice it? i cant. however with single armature phones you can notice that the bass is poor, and if you crank it up your much more likely to receive distortion,due to the simple fact that one driver is doing 3 jobs rather than 1 or 2, this is a technical fact and a flaw of single wideband drivers, its a very very expensive procedure to manufacture a full range driver that works...period. ask anybody. the same goes for earphones, multiple drivers simply have more advantages than disadvantages.

 

[Spad]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx20001 /img/forum/go_quote.gif and for thos that are going to say the er4 is an example of a great single armature im sorry i dont agree. to be honest i think its extremely overrated and sounds pretty crap. especially against modern multi driver phones such as triple fi 10, se530, westone 3 etc etc. all of those mentioned offer a fuller sound and actually sounds like real musical instruments playing. i really do think the future is and always will involve multi driver phones, every year more examples are being released such as ue11, westone 3 etc.

I bought ER4Ps shortly after they arrived on the market, and when I read the above I had to laugh. The almost legendary ER4P/S has been the gold standard for several years, so obviously Jinx doesn't know what he's talking about--or so I thought.

I have both the ER4P/S and the new Apple IEM so I decided to do a quick comparison. This may strike my fellow ER4 owners as heresy, but he's right. IMO, Apple's dual armature design is markedly better than the ER4, particularly in the bass region. The ER4 has some outstanding features such as its well known clarity and detail, but the Apple is at least almost as good in these areas and literally blows the Etys away in its bass response. This isn't meant as a put down of the Etymotics, but it does illustrate how the technology has moved on to the point that a current $80 design can best a $280 cutting-edge design of only a few years ago.

I don't necessarily expect to be believed, but the difference is so obvious that I think anyone making the comparison will agree. And I suspect that if they bore any name other than Apple they would be receiving raves here.

The Apple is my first experience with a multiple driver IEM, but I'm now convinced and absolutely sold on the concept. I can't wait to try the Westone 3.

 

[oarnura]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spad /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have both the ER4P/S and the new Apple IEM so I decided to do a quick comparison. This may strike my fellow ER4 owners as heresy, but he's right. IMO, Apple's dual armature design is markedly better than the ER4, particularly in the bass region. The ER4 has some outstanding features such as its well known clarity and detail, but the Apple is at least almost as good in these areas and literally blows the Etys away in its bass response. This isn't meant as a put down of the Etymotics, but it does illustrate how the technology has moved on to the point that a current $80 design can best a $280 cutting-edge design of only a few years ago. I don't necessarily expect to be believed, but the difference is so obvious that I think anyone making the comparison will agree. And I suspect that if they bore any name other than Apple they would be receiving raves here. The Apple is my first experience with a multiple driver IEM, but I'm now convinced and absolutely sold on the concept. I can't wait to try the Westone 3.

I couldn't agree more. The strong anti-apple bias on Head-fi makes me take every single review here with a bag of salt.

I have also noticed that audiophile forums tend to favor underdogs more. I have seen it many times before. Some internet direct company comes up and receives rave reviews as being the best value besting speakers twice the cost.

Everytime I have auditioned speakers that have gotten raves I have come away scratching my head, think "what were those guys smoking?".

I see that the phenomenon is healthy here on Head-Fi as it is on AVSforum and such.

I see polarized reviews here some claim the Apple IEMs aren't even as good as those costing half the price. Then some claim that they best IEMs 3 times the cost.

I am going to get the Apple IEM in half and hour or so. My wife tracked one down and just bought it. I'll get the NE-7M whenever it ships.

I'll compare both of those to my UE SF3 studios, Jays D-Jay and post a review.

 

[jonathanjong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oarnura /img/forum/go_quote.gif How much break-in time did you give the Apple IEM? How many hours are on the er6i? It seems that most reviews on Head-fi start with "I gave them x hours of burn-in" or "These have been burning-in for x hours". I am not arguing that it would make a difference but I'd like to know.

The Apple IEMs had 0 hrs burn-in. The ER-6is have been used extensively for about 2 weeks now, I think. I detected no perceptible difference in SQ on the ER-6is along the way. No idea if the Apple IEMs will change over time. Armature driver IEMs don't need burn it, right?

 

[jonathanjong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif that is what headfiers see as well. there are so many posts like, "how many drivers does it have"? 80$ and the mic etc: i think apple did things that no one even they expected: sold cheaply. do flanges and other earpieces from say er6 for instance fit the phone? id like to hear about its treble and stage when it has a good fit, if even possible.

I'll try fit my Ety tips on them later tonight (when my friend returns with the Apple IEMs) and post more impressions on the OP.

 

[Spad]

So far I've only used them sans amp with the touch 2g/32 and Nano 4g/16 but I couldn't be more pleased with the quality/price ratio. I have a couple dozen HPs and have been in serious audio since the early 70s, so I'm hardly the star-struck neophyte that some are probably already assuming me to be. My musical tastes are pretty much limited to jazz and classical though, so YMMV.

I'm always reluctant to mention this, but in the interest of full disclosure--I have a rather large investment in Apple stock, which has absolutely nothing to do with my opinion of their products.

 

[jonathanjong]

On the number of drivers (and Apple Fanboyism)

I'll be the first to admit it. I'm an Apple Fanboy, living blissfully within Jobs's reality distortion field. If I had the money, I'd buy Apple stock. I not-so-secretly desire an Apple t-shirt. I love Apple products so much I want to take them behind a middle school and...never mind. As such, I've defended iBuds in the past. Yes, ma'am. And I certainly didn't grab these expecting them to suck. I had high hopes for thise things of beauty. But doing the comparison against my ER-6i, they just didn't cut it in everything except bass and maybe speed. Less detailed, less clear, way smaller soundstage. I'd like to be able to do a comparison with the ER4, to replicate Spad's experience, but that's not going to happen.

Anyone want to send me an ER4?

Sure, I can concede that ceteris paribus, dual armature driver headphones are (or should be) better than singles. So, if driver count was all that mattered, the Apple IEMs should beat the ER-6i. But driver count ain't the entire story, it seems. Erm, here's an analogy, for those who dislike abstract talk: Ceteris paribus, the more push ups you do, the larger your muscles will become. (Caveat, I don't know if this is true. Just concede it for sake of argment.) So, of Joe does 50 and Bob does 20, Joe should be more muscly than Bob. But what if Joe does lousy push-ups and eats lots of crap, and Bob does chin-ups and weight-training and cardio on top of the pushups? It's likely that Bob would be more muscly than Joe, isn't it? From this analogy, Joe is the Apple IEM, Bob is the ER-6i.

An additional note on price: On one hand, it seems fair to compare the Apple IEMs with other IEMs of similar MRSP. However, other IEMs tend to sell on the streets for more less than their MRSP. So, I think we have to keep at the back of our minds that, for example, the ER-6i usually go for $75 and sometimes go for $50.

Edit: Additional impressions added to OP (Summary: Vocals are more forward than via ER-6i).

 

[oarnura]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathanjong /img/forum/go_quote.gif But doing the comparison against my ER-6i, they just didn't cut it in everything except bass and maybe speed. Less detailed, less clear, way smaller soundstage. I'd like to be able to do a comparison with the ER4, to replicate Spad's experience, but that's not going to happen. Anyone want to send me an ER4?

I can't compare an ER-6i. But a quick comparison between my UE SF3 and D-Jays reveals that the Apple IEM are much smoother and have more detail. The SF3s are more upfront imaging but the instrument separation isn't as good as the Apple. The D-Jays have a similar sound signature as the Apple but suffer from lack of separation like the UE SF3. The bass on the Apple is much better than both of them. All three driven by two iPhones(2.5 and 3G). The isolation of both the UE and D-Jay are far better than the Apple. The Apple IEM have a port on the back so there is no chance they would have decent isolation.

Bear in mind that both those single armature driver designs retail for more than $100. I paid $50 (UE) and $60(D-jays).

I'll post a more detailed review once I have had the chance to test the NuForce NE-7ms out.


Quote:

Sure, I can concede that ceteris paribus, dual armature driver headphones are (or should be) better than singles. So, if driver count was all that mattered, the Apple IEMs should beat the ER-6i. But driver count ain't the entire story, it seems.

Depends on who is judging, no? Spad just said the Apple is about as good as the ER4s.

Quote:

An additional note on price: On one hand, it seems fair to compare the Apple IEMs with other IEMs of similar MRSP. However, other IEMs tend to sell on the streets for more less than their MRSP. So, I think we have to keep at the back of our minds that, for example, the ER-6i usually go for $75 and sometimes go for $50.

That's beside the point as I have already explained above. Does the ER-6i offer a mic and iPhone controls? If you get the shure mic extension it is $39 more.

The retail price determines a lot of things. Etymotics' price on their website for the ER-6i is $149. Wait a few more years then you could possibly pick up the Apple IEMs for $50 or less.

 

[jonathanjong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oarnura /img/forum/go_quote.gif I can't compare an ER-6i. But a quick comparison between my UE SF3 and D-Jays reveals that the Apple IEM are much smoother and have more detail. The SF3s are more upfront imaging but the instrument separation isn't as good as the Apple. The D-Jays have a similar sound signature as the Apple but suffer from lack of separation like the UE SF3. The bass on the Apple is much better than both of them. All three driven by two iPhones(2.5 and 3G). The isolation of both the UE and D-Jay are far better than the Apple. The Apple IEM have a port on the back so there is no chance they would have decent isolation.

If I'm reading right, you're saying that relative to the SF3 and D-Jays, the Apple IEMs have more detail, better instrument separation and imaging, better bass, worse isolation. Now, I don't know what the SF3 and D-Jays sound like, but my summary would be that vis-a-vis ER-6i, the Apple IEMs have diminished detail, smaller soundstage, better bass, worse isolation. But given the differences in our reference cans, it's hard to know what to make of this.


Quote:

Originally Posted by oarnura /img/forum/go_quote.gif Depends on who is judging, no? Spad just said the Apple is about as good as the ER4s.

I suppose it does, which is why having multiple reviews on the same headphone is important. SQ may be a subjective matter, but a consumer is more likely to be satisfied with a product that most people find good, than one that most people find bad (or that a minority find good, but the majority find bad).

That's beside the point as I have already explained above. Does the ER-6i offer a mic and iPhone controls? If you get the shure mic extension it is $39 more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oarnura /img/forum/go_quote.gif The retail price determines a lot of things. Etymotics' price on their website for the ER-6i is $149. Wait a few more years then you could possibly pick up the Apple IEMs for $50 or less.

Indeed, I agree. If I were an iPhone user, I'd go for the Apple IEMs, hands down. $5 more than the ER-6i street price, and it comes with a mic. Volume control doesn't work, but meh. I think the MRSP and future price of the Apple IEMs are moot point, though. I don't see why it matters how much Etymotic thinks they're worth. What's important is how much consumer can usually get them for, right? So, there's no point saying "ER-6i can sometimes be gotten for $50" (I'll concede that much), but I'd put the ER-6is in the "$75-$100" category rather than the "$100-$150" one just because pretty much no discerning shopper would pick them up for $150, whereas most people will be getting the Apple IEMs at $80. Also, how much these sell for in a few years is besides the point because I'm talking to people who want to buy them now.

 

[shigzeo]

so are you asking me to now go and purchase these and give another review?

 

[oarnura]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathanjong /img/forum/go_quote.gif If I'm reading right, you're saying that relative to the SF3 and D-Jays, the Apple IEMs have more detail, better instrument separation and imaging, better bass, worse isolation. Now, I don't know what the SF3 and D-Jays sound like, but my summary would be that vis-a-vis ER-6i, the Apple IEMs have diminished detail, smaller soundstage, better bass, worse isolation. But given the differences in our reference cans, it's hard to know what to make of this.

Exactly! We can't really be sure. The Er-6i's are known to be detail kings. So given that the Apple's aren't that much worse than many out there, they are indeed quite decent. In the end it boils down to personal preference.



Quote:

I suppose it does, which is why having multiple reviews on the same headphone is important. SQ may be a subjective matter, but a consumer is more likely to be satisfied with a product that most people find good, than one that most people find bad (or that a minority find good, but the majority find bad).

And your point is? The Apple's are universally bad and the er-6i universally better loved?



Quote:

Indeed, I agree. If I were an iPhone user, I'd go for the Apple IEMs, hands down. $5 more than the ER-6i street price, and it comes with a mic. Volume control doesn't work, but meh. I think the MRSP and future price of the Apple IEMs are moot point, though.

Bingo. Apple didn't set out to make the best universal IEM. They decided to make an IEM that offered iPod Touch 2G and Nano 4G users a mic and volume control with better sound that the stock phones.

Quote:

I don't see why it matters how much Etymotic thinks they're worth. What's important is how much consumer can usually get them for, right? So, there's no point saying "ER-6i can sometimes be gotten for $50" (I'll concede that much), but I'd put the ER-6is in the "$75-$100" category rather than the "$100-$150" one just because pretty much no discerning shopper would pick them up for $150, whereas most people will be getting the Apple IEMs at $80. Also, how much these sell for in a few years is besides the point because I'm talking to people who want to buy them now.

That argument is fine on one side. The HF2s offer the same functionality as the Apple IEM's can't be had for anything less than $150. Assuming that the ER-6i sound similar to the HF2s would you consider the HF2 to be a better "value" proposition given your SQ preference for the ER-6i than the Apple IEMs?

 

[Calexico]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathanjong /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Apple IEMs had 0 hrs burn-in. The ER-6is have been used extensively for about 2 weeks now, I think. I detected no perceptible difference in SQ on the ER-6is along the way. No idea if the Apple IEMs will change over time. Armature driver IEMs don't need burn it, right?

There might be some psychological burn in, IE getting used to the sound.

 

[oarnura]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calexico /img/forum/go_quote.gif There might be some psychological burn in, IE getting used to the sound.

I think that's the only kind there is. I didn't quite like my UE SF3s at first as much as I do now.

 

[jonathanjong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif so are you asking me to now go and purchase these and give another review?

Yes, gogogo!