[jmb]

For me it's still the sound quality of the hardware for great audiophile playback through the HP jack, in a small, simple, beautiful unit that has a great battery life.

So, I'll say again (This would be the Neuros 3.0 I described above):

1. Audiophile headphone amp
2. HD storage (20GB enough for me, but the ability to swap out HD easily by taking the unit apart, like JB3, would be great)
3. Gapless playback, parametric EQ, true random shuffle of all tracks with crossfader (for that jukebox type playback)
4. Simple, small, aethetically pleasing design (like iPod)
5. Simple one-handed operation and intutive menu system
6. Long battery life (like Rio karma's when playing mp3's)
7. Windows explorer interface (Package unit with EAC and LAME for extraction and encoding), which reminds me...

If LAME was used to encode, and LAME was used to decode on the unit, wouldn't this solve the gapless problem? Not sure just a question. I've heard that the incompatability of the users' encoder with the particular units' decoder there are gaps b/t tracks.

 

[jmb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBC - Lot's of firmware/hardware problems (not necessarily on my device, but check out iaudiophile.net)

Sometimes the extent of firmware problems gets exagerated, due to sample issues. If notings wrong with your player your not going to post, "all is well." However, peopel with problems will always post there problems to try and get help to fix them.

I'm not saying that firmware problems do not exist, just are often exagerated. I hab my JB3 for a long time and never had a firmware issue. Updates just made the unit run better and added more features.

Sorry this is a bit off topic. My apologies.

 

[JoeBorn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helter Skelter Some of those can be tricky. Last I checked I was hearing of some possible legal issues including MPC support in a commercial player. It seems to be liscensed under the GNU GPL now, so I'm not sure if that's stil the case. Monkey's audio is, as I understand, a bit intensive on the computational requirements for decoding. This only gets worse at the higher compression settings. I'm not sure what kind of licensing is in place for it. Luckily, FLAC is, to my understanding, not really much more difficult to decode than Ogg Vorbis, no matter what the compression setting (all the hard work goes in at the encoding stage) making it a much more ideal lossless format for portable players. It's also, like Ogg Vorbis, totally free for anyone to use as they please, comercially or otherwise. MP3, AAC, and WMA support all seem to be fairly standard these days, and as long as I have that and ogg/flac and true gapless support, I'm perfectly happy. Anything extra is just a pleasant bonus.

That's good to hear and will help a lot. Because the Neuros 3 is based on a substantial ARM9 processor, it will dramatically increase the availability of codecs, both open source and otherwise. Out of the box, Ogg and FLAC should be there and we've definately heard you loud and clear on the gapless.

 

[K.Ashwood]

I think someone in this thread mentioned RockBox and this was the most recent post on http://open.neurosaudio.com/

We are having an IRC meeting with some of the Rockbox elders on Sept 20th 21:00 UTC, if you are interested in the N3 firmware, please join us. it will be held on the #haxx IRC channel on freenode

click below for your local time.

( http://www.timeanddate.com/worldcloc...=0&sec=0&p1=64 )

The focus will be the suitability of our proposed N3 platform as a native "Rockbox" device, in other words, we ship in production with Rockbox as the "factory" firmware.

The proposed N3 is a high end portable audio device focused on sound quality and audio enthusiast issues. Our draft proposal is below for the N3:
» Joe's blog | add new comment | read more

Keith Ashwood

 

[JoeBorn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRSpeed85 Or just buy those discontinued DAPs in development from ex-Rio, rebrand it and sell it??? AFAIK, those were the most popular non-production DAPs on this forum and elsewhere. I still really want the chroma.

Just out of curiousity, what do you guys think Rio did wrong? Despite its support here, the Karma was practically on close out pricing from the day it was launched.

I have my own thoughts, but what do you all think? Maybe there's some insight on configuration to be gained there.

BTW, I'm sorry I'm falling behind here, but none of the posts will get missed, this is the kind of thread that get's printed out and discussed at length. The stuff that's immediately pertinent, we'll address right now, but none of it will get lost, this is great stuff, thanks all!

Joe

 

[Sledge]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeBorn Just out of curiousity, what do you guys think Rio did wrong? Despite its support here, the Karma was practically on close out pricing from the day it was launched. I have my own thoughts, but what do you all think? Maybe there's some insight on configuration to be gained there.

I always thought it was simple lack of advertising. There's no such thing as a product that sells itself.

As far as the N3 is concerned, I want gapless (don't expect me to consider buying this if this feature isn't there), FLAC/OGG support OOTB as well as the ability to use codec "plugins" for more filetype support, a large (80+GB) hard drive that can be easily swapped for a larger one, about 15 hours of play time playing FLAC or other lossless formats, and a high quality DAC and amp. The amp should be able to drive something like the AKG K271S (gee, maybe because that's what I've got

). I don't need or want FM, color screen, FM transmitter, games, calendars, or other stuff. Small size also isn't that important. While I don't want to carry around something the size of a laptop, don't feel the need to compromise because you can't make the device as small as an iPod.

 

[haroldpark]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeBorn we've definately heard you loud and clear on the gapless.

God bless you sir!

As to what Rio did wrong depends if you are asking about the product/engineering perspective or the business/marketing perspective.

I would say the Karma's looks and bulky design hurt it. The square design seems less pocketable than something flatter and longer. Others will disagree. The reports of Hard Drive failures and scroll wheels busting off made a lot of people wary about going with a brand they did not know as well as Apple. By the time they fixed this up the damage in terms of reputation was already done. From a business perspective marketing is always great but in dealing with the Rio fanbase they weren't that great. They came within an inch of releasing the K2/Chroma/Cubic/whaatever but they were so tightlipped about the whole thing that a lot of very loyal customers had bought something else after their Karma had broken 4 or 5 times and there was no word on when/if another player might be out

 

[The Monkey]

Sorry if this has been answered, but is there an estimate for when the N3 will get to market?

 

[haroldpark]

OK I'll take a punt...

1) GAPLESS!!! (I know you got the message already but I had to say it.)

2) Sounds like you got the lossless multitude of codecs covered so thats all good.

3) Size/build/look: A lot of people are gonna say "I don't care what it looks like!" but I think this may be untrue. As someone said you don't want to feel embarassed when taking it out of your pocket. Now aesthetics are very personal but I think you should go with something minimalistic and "classic" (whatever that means for a DAP). We are talking a portable device so I think for a single platter 1.8" drive something less than or equal to the 4g Ipods dimensions should be the goal. I hope this is not unrealistic given what else is going in here. Build should be solid and as someone else said rugged. Which brings me to my suggestion for a case for this thing how about something like this
http://www.dapreview.net/gallery/dis...bum=151&pos=22
http://www.dapreview.net/gallery/dis...bum=151&pos=23
I know that ain't exactly everyones idea of "classic" but a no-nonsense durable metal fricking box sounds good to me.

4) UI: Tough one. Tend to lean towards buttons, possibly with a sort of "page down/up" way to navigate through really long lists. Though the advantages of click wheels in navigating long lists are well known I find it more frustrating to overshoot a selection when doing small movements and here is where buttons excel.

5) file transfer: MSC Drag and drop with an option on the player to rebuild the ID3 database whenever the user updates/has the need. Playlists etc can be worked out with the power of open source.
On this note I believe from that chat you guys were gonna include USBOTG? Good move.

6) Display: Don't care about colour LCDs. USBOTG would be great to free up space on my camera but I don't have to look at the damn things on the player and reminisce. Is monochromatic OLED feasible? May save on battery life but more expensive? Anyone wissh to educate me?

7) No included headphones: As The Monkey said we're just gonna chuck them out and its only gonna make the player more expensive to have them.

8) digital out, line out and all is cool. I'm down for a minijack connection as being satisfactory.

9) Recording features: Nice to know they are there. Not as anti this as others here seem to be as the idea of being able to have a decent portable music recorder is nice. The voice dictation thing is similarly cool but in being real honest I don't know how much I would use these features.

10) Battery life: The more the better obviously but 10/12 hours is bare min. 15 to 20 is great but not many "joe blow" daps have 20 so I should stop dreaming about that I suppose. If you can get 15 and a replacable battery you are doing good.

11) Single platter 40 gig hard drives are now a reality or so I believe so a dap of ipod size (or less) and this capacity (or more) should be the goal.

12) Sound Quality: I am of the "some compromise is OK/good" line of thinking here. 24/96 capability is pretty crazy and pretty beyond what I would ever hope for but good on you for having a go. All I want is to avoid the bass rolloff (iPod and others), audible hiss/weak amp (Sony) and other obvious weaknesses that many other daps suffer from. I don't need "the best of the best" but something that sounded pretty good when put through a decent system would be swell.

Thats about all I can think of. Its pretty much a dream list but I thank you for giving us the opportunity to be heard. If you can achieve most of your goals while providing something that is portable, looks decent enough and has a respectable battery life you should be able to fill the niche that Rio might have claimed as their own.

 

[Emmanuel]

In addition to the aforementioned suggestions (by all members), please allow me to propose the following:

- 24 Bit Burr-Brown D/A conversion
- Personal preference: Jensen capacitors
- Navigation via a joystick type element or the wheel found on minidiscs and the RM-MC40ELK remote control (the type that only goes up/down and click)


(I'd better shoot off now before someone calls me a "failing student"

)

 

[Helter Skelter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeBorn Just out of curiousity, what do you guys think Rio did wrong? Despite its support here, the Karma was practically on close out pricing from the day it was launched.

Personally, I think Rio did quite a bit right on the Karma. As far as features go, it's still hard to beat in certain areas. You said you've heard the message on gapless, that's one of them down. Another (and it's a big one) is player interface. This is one of the iPod's main strengths, and is one of the reasons I love my Karma. If you've used a Karma for any real length of time, you probably know what I'm talking about. It's just so easy to pick up, use and navigate, it feels very intuitive. But you probably know the importance of this already, so I'll leave it at that.

As far as the player itself was concerned, the only things I think that could have been improved significantly would be durability (we all know about the many people with broken scroll wheels, busted sticks, and dead hard drives) and perhaps more acessories like a breakout cable for line-out through the dock connector.

The other major issue was a near-complete lack of advertising. It was a great product at a great price, but nobody really knew about the thing at first except occasionally by word of mouth. A lot of people first found out about the player through news of the reliability issues, which of course didn't help things.

 

[YamiTenshi]

Wow, Rockbox and gapless on the factory settings...

First off, thank you Joe Born for paying us audiophiles so much attention. It's about time someone tapped into this market and found out what we want. We can be a very powerful and loyal group of customers if you serve us right (just look at the headphone threads).

Anyway, back to business. I honestly thing one of the reasons Rio failed was because of the way the Karma looked. To many of us here that might not seem like a big deal because we loved the way it sounded (and it played gapless!). But the truth is when I went to see the Karma at CC, I picked it up and immediately thought it was too thick. It was not something I could easily fit into my pocket and I didn't want to carry an extra bag around all the time. If it was a little thinner and longer instead of square shaped I might have bought it.

The Carbon was a lot better in terms of looks, but when it hit the market it was nothing special. There was already the Creative Micro and Apple ipod mini. The Carbon had the chance to appeal to the audiophile market in search of a microdrive player, but it didn't.

And as much as audiophiles might be willing to dish out a pretty penny for a good DAP, you still need the general public's support to stay afloat in the market. The ipod is nothing special in terms of sound or features but look at how well they are doing. They have a product that the mass population loves to look at and they advertise like crazy. Advertising it important. Finding the right way to do it is a little more tricky.

Please don't take this to mean you need to concentrate too much on looks instead of the actual workings of the player (that would defeat the whole purpose of this thread

). This is all my opinion, but it's something to keep in mind.

I personally like the look of the iriver H120/140 and iaudio X5, kind of a smooth black and silver look. The ipod never did it for me because it looked too clean and boring, but to each his own.

All I can think of right now, but I'll get back to you when I have more ideas.

 

[gorman]

Don't forget replaygain capabilities please!

 

[jmb]

Why Apple reigns supreme in DAP market:

1. Simple, clean, elegant, design (best looking player out there). Thsy just look damn cool!
2. Useability #1. The iPods touch scroll wheel was revolutionary and didn't stand out from simple clean design. With a HD player, you need an easy way to access/browse alll those tracks.
3. Useability #2. Simple easy software (i.e. good intergation with iTunes)
4. Small pocket friendly size
5. Probably one of the most important - Market strategy. Selling the "Apple/iPod lifestyle." People pay top dollar for Apple products, not because they are better, just beacuse they are "Apple people." They been very good at distinguishing themselves from other computer companies and marketing themselves as the "cool alternative company."

 

[seeberg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeBorn Just out of curiousity, what do you guys think Rio did wrong? Despite its support here, the Karma was practically on close out pricing from the day it was launched. I have my own thoughts, but what do you all think? Maybe there's some insight on configuration to be gained there. BTW, I'm sorry I'm falling behind here, but none of the posts will get missed, this is the kind of thread that get's printed out and discussed at length. The stuff that's immediately pertinent, we'll address right now, but none of it will get lost, this is great stuff, thanks all! Joe

Personally, I think Rio only did wrong that they didn't plan out properly, namely the direction of their company in spite of such overwhelming odds, and the fact that a few-emphasis on few- of their flagship product turned out to be fautly in some respects. I mean the Karma of course, but this isn't the first time I've seen something like this happen, Sony had the same problem with their PS2 console at the time of the US launch, but the difference was that they were stubborn and arrogant about it-at least, several of their service reps were. And oh man, they made me so

!!!

Of course, I don't know exactly how Rio could have recovered from that situation, besides suggesting that they take a different approach in the future, like a more grassroots and word of mouth approach to things, but it was too late. They were on the verge of something great apparently, and it was all pulled out at the last minute. It happens though, it's a shame, but time goes on.

As far as a player goes, I that the Karma just about had everything I could want, aside from imperfect durability and no UMS compliance. That's chiefly what it lacked to me, but I still wanted one bad enough that I'd tune up a broken one at a major discount. However, what I plan on doing to mine to bring it "up to spec" so to speak, is what I'd like to see in the N3/Neuros 3- added durability to major activity points, like scroll wheels/joysticks etc. (I'll see if I can disassemble my Karma, cast the stick and wheel, and make urethane duplicates-the stick with an inverted surface and less bump, and wheel that has a contoured depth with that of the main unit, so if the Karma drops, the chances of failure for either thing would be greatly reduced because they are no longer out there waiting for such a thing to happen.

There's more to it, but I gotta use the bathroom. Joe, I gotta commend what you're doing, it's killer to know that this kind of discussion is taking place, that the people that a product will be sold to will have some kind of voice in what that product becomes. "The Peoples' Music Player" would be a great nickname to what you guys are developing, IMHO.

,
Abe