[gerG]

So, what will the defining features of this new player be? If it is to be considered an audiophile player:

Must have:
Digital output. Format is open to debate, but digital out will be a unique step above the current players on the market. otoh any one of the major players could add this feature at any time, so it is not enough to count on as a differentiator.

High quality analog output. This will require a dac with some pedigree. It will also require some way to get the precious analog signal out. I do not believe that any device can live up to its potential if the signal has to jump through a mini-plug. This will be a nagging issue amongst audiophiles. RCA plugs, while still not great, are an accepted standard.

Changeable battery. Not sure of the best configuration, but everyone is asking for this.

Gapless seems to be a hot button. I should think that this will imply a generous memory buffer, especially for those who want to use lossless files.

Love to have:
High grade headphone amp. Forget amp on a chip solutions. A nice fallback, but the inmates here will want something more. Some of these guys give pet names to their favorite op amps or tubes!

Superior grade volume control. We know that the signal has to be attenuated somewhere, and we want the control to be of high audio quality, as well as good mechanical quality. On top of that it needs must have a good tactile feel and excellent ergonomics. Do not underestimate the allure of a good volume control.

Flexible equalizer. I do more EQ than most members here, so this is very attractive to me personally. The thought of an 8 band parametric with variable Q on each band is just intoxicating. This is a software issue, however, so as long as there are hooks in place, dedicated geeks can do the rest.

A sense of ruggedness and durability. Glossy finishes and scratch prone materials on the current must have device will make users hungry for a device that is real world tolerant.

Would be nice:
Compact size. Not sure where the threshold is here. This is a real niche defining issue. Is this to be an ipod contender, or a replacement for the PJB that we miss so much?
Swappable/upgradeable hard drive.
Upgradeable memory buffer.
Incredibly readable big display for us old farts!

Not a concern:
Color vs b&w display.
Case fashion statement.
Extras like address book, clock, cell phone, or anything else non-audiocentric.

I am avoiding the price issue for now. A value equation would be nice, but I am too tired just now.

Good night.

gerG

 

[jmb]

If you really want to impress people who will review the unit with the stock headphones, then definitely go for:

Koss KSC75

That would be awesome!!!!!

 

[gerG]

Oh, I keep forgetting...

Does anyone else get a chuckle out of a device that is having trouble deciding what it wants to be, and just happens to be called, en mass, neuroses?

Sorry to poke fun, but I just live for irony

gerG

 

[K.Ashwood]

Firstly let take a moment to say that Neuros is taking your feedback very seriously. As their leading reseller we are closely following the development of the Neuros 3. While some very basics have been decided about the unit, there is still very much that has yet be determined. So please keep the comments coming! They want to know what the audio experts think.

It has been interesting to see some of the same comments repeated over and over. Not only here but in other arena’s as well.

I think JMB might have our office bugged. We (American Techpushers) will be offering a free upgrade to Koss KSC-75 with all Neuros players (442, N3). We also will be offering the Koss PortaPro as paid upgrade. Also in the plans are the px100.

Keith Ashwood
American Techpushers

 

[seeberg]

I'm nothing short of glad that the folks at Neuros stopped by for some ideas and support, and I for one support what they are doing, and if the design of the next big Neuros player fits my needs, they will have my money for one. It's too bad though that at the moment I haven't any ideas to state, altough those already stated are quite nice.

I'll definitely be keeping track of this!

,
Abe

 

[jmb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by K.Ashwood Firstly let take a moment to say that Neuros is taking your feedback very seriously. As their leading reseller we are closely following the development of the Neuros 3. While some very basics have been decided about the unit, there is still very much that has yet be determined. So please keep the comments coming! They want to know what the audio experts think. It has been interesting to see some of the same comments repeated over and over. Not only here but in other arena’s as well. I think JMB might have our office bugged. We (American Techpushers) will be offering a free upgrade to Koss KSC-75 with all Neuros players (442, N3). We also will be offering the Koss PortaPro as paid upgrade. Also in the plans are the px100. Keith Ashwood American Techpushers

What can I say. Great minds think alike!

I would still strongly push for the MX400's as stock earbuds. That would make a lot of people very happy.

The upgrades are a great idea, but only if it would be cheaper for the consumer to upgrade then to go and buy them at the cheapest web price.

Basically, they would have to be a few bucks cheaper than or the same price as the cheapest (shipping included) web price.

I don't know much about business, not yet anyway, but it seems that if you are bundling a company's headphones with your product, they would offer you a decent discount, right?

 

[K.Ashwood]

Well the Koss Koss KSC-75 is free upgrade.. Can't beat that... But I understand your point

Keith Ashwood
American Techpushers

 

[jmb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by K.Ashwood Well the Koss Koss KSC-75 is free upgrade.. Can't beat that... But I understand your point Keith Ashwood American Techpushers

Oh...missed that.

Perfect. Absolutely perfect choice for free bundled headphone.

 

[strohmie]

Man, did this thread go off track. We're talking about gapless and other software-related considerations and simply listing "what we want" posts when the thread actually is referring only to hardware considerations.

Some of the features requested within the same posts are wholely at odds with one another. For one thing, if we're going for highest quality audio, there's no chance of getting 20+ hours battery life. Hell, there are few enough DAPs out there that get anywhere near that. It perhaps would be wiser to set a minimum acceptable battery life and design around that bare minimum on one charge. Given the battery life of a few recent-gen portables, 8-10 hours might be a solid (though probably unpopular around here) base. Given one charged external battery along with it, that's 2/3rds a day of music right there. Anything above that given the eventual design would be gravy. Similarly, a DAP can only be so small when it uses a large battery to get strong battery life, not to mention the hard drive, possible RCA connectors, and other ins-outs. Speaking of RCAs, while they might be preferable over a mini connector, I don't think those make sense given the inherent size constraints. Nice thought, but probably hard to implement. Also, the retail price already appears to be approximately set at $329 for 20gb and $379 for 40gb. So I don't see a $200 base price in our future.

To the hardware considerations...I'd also be one of those guys who dislikes optical. I don't much like SPDIF either, but it's a "least-of-all-evils" solution.

This might be beyond the scope of the N3, but as an add-on for whatever form of dock ends up being built, perhaps the ability to use the player as a music server via ethernet connection or wirelessly. There is much potential for accessories with a unit like this, and given that it will have a high quality output, accessories like that and other potential third-party devices would actually be worth buying.

The concept of the 24/96 internal Burr-Brown is to future-proof the player given the possibility of SACD-quality sound files down the line, correct? This is a sound decision, because you'll probably sell to a number of audiophiles simply based on this ability. Future-proofing is a solid selling point for processors in the high end world, and while it might be a small part of the market, it is still another sale. However, given the current state of the music industry, 24/96 music files seem to be an unlikelyhood for the near future. Basically, the utility of 24/96 is going to come down to whether you anticipate creating another player (eg, the N4) within a year or two or look to this design to live on well into the future. If the former is a possibility, it might be wise to wait on that audio capability (despite the potential for added headroom from 24/96). If the latter, go with your current implementation. If you're really looking first and foremost at audio quality in this player, future proof or not, absolutely go with 24/96.

The headamp is a tough call. It might end up being a matter of testing the output of a PCM1742 first and seeing what combinations of op/buffer or standalone headamp module sounds best without any form of software EQ. Obviously you could spend next to nothing on this aspect of the design, but that's not why you're here.

 

[jmb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by strohmie For one thing, if we're going for highest quality audio, there's no chance of getting 20+ hours battery life.

I think 15 hours is certainly feasable. For instance:

The headphone amp is going to be the most important component in terms of sound quality. Xin's Supermicro amp ran on only 1.5 Volts and had a marathon battery life. I'm confident an amp similiar to that could be built for the Neuros that is even smaller and more efficient. There are other considerations as well, but the headphone amp is definitely going to be the key. It may not be able to drive HD650's or AKG K100's, but it would be a huge leap compared to current players.

I think the ability to drive the HD555's very well, would be a good benchmark.

I think that is why many people, including myself, are stressing the need to go simple with unit, so that only the essential components are included. Components that would make it the best sounding portable ever produced, with some other key features, like gapless playback, a line out, and a good battery life.

 

[donunus]

The Bottom Line for Me:

- Headphone Output good enough to drive 10 to 600ohm loads with authority

- DAC must be at least as good sounding as a full size cd player like a sony ES (which also have great headphone jacks by the way)

- At least 20hrs battery life if possible. Better too if its user replaceable

- 60gb or above for the hard drive a must for lossless formats and videos if available

- Good user interface and touch pads like the ipods

- If It can play videos it should have an awesome screen

- All this for under 600 dollars if possible


maybe a version that can record professional quality stuff for 100 dollars more or the same price if you take away the video option for the pro model

something along those lines will do...


Examples of comments here on headfi when owning this product:

- The Neuros model blah blah blah definitely makes my sr71 useless. It blows it away in all aspects of sound quality

- It drives my k1000 with authority

- Its totally black between notes and all instrumental timbres are very realistic. This DAPs amp is also the most transparent and dynamic sounding thing ive ever heard with my headphones.

- None of my mp3s (even the ones with very high output) clip with this player. My old ipod clips with very high output mp3s but not the neuros. This player is in a different league when it comes to sound quality compared with all the other DAPS I have ever heard. No Contest!!!

- This thing is so easy to use, even IPOD users will think its easy to use...

something like that

maybe the akg k1000 thread would be a bit too much but it was worth a try

 

[JoeBorn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmb Do you guys think Neuros will listen and actually make an audiophile player w/o all the extra video and recording functions? I guess want I wan to know is: Are we wasting are time here? I'm getting the feeling they are not going the route Head-fiers are asking for.

Well, we're definately listening, and it is me. You'll find this discussion mirrored in a number of places, including our mailing lists and IRC.

It's important to remember that we're looking for advice and feedback for a number of products, with varying degrees of "compromises." The one closest to what this group is looking for is the Neuros 3. I can't say it's no compromises, but it will be most directly focused on audio. Again, it will have compromises and size will certainly be one of them. Think of it as a high end mp3 player with a real focus on SQ and audio issues (both hardware and software). Probably not something that a best buy would carry, but probably not a huge premium over the more mainstream products.

 

[jmb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeBorn Well, we're definately listening, and it is me. You'll find this discussion mirrored in a number of places, including our mailing lists and IRC. It's important to remember that we're looking for advice and feedback for a number of products, with varying degrees of "compromises." The one closest to what this group is looking for is the Neuros 3. I can't say it's no compromises, but it will be most directly focused on audio. Again, it will have compromises and size will certainly be one of them. Think of it as a high end mp3 player with a real focus on SQ and audio issues (both hardware and software). Probably not something that a best buy would carry, but probably not a huge premium over the more mainstream products.

Thanks Joe...that's great to hear and I will focus my attention in this thread on the Neuros 3.

If you ever need a reviewer for the preproduction beta versions of the Neuros 3. I humbly, and with an EXTREME amount begging, offer up my services.

 

[DRSpeed85]

Or just buy those discontinued DAPs in development from ex-Rio, rebrand it and sell it??? AFAIK, those were the most popular non-production DAPs on this forum and elsewhere. I still really want the chroma.

 

[Helter Skelter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazper 13. Multiformat lossless and lossy playback - someone please support more than just mp3, ogg, aac and wma! - I want MPC(musepack), I want APE (Monkey's Audio) I want flac!

Some of those can be tricky. Last I checked I was hearing of some possible legal issues including MPC support in a commercial player. It seems to be liscensed under the GNU GPL now, so I'm not sure if that's stil the case.

Monkey's audio is, as I understand, a bit intensive on the computational requirements for decoding. This only gets worse at the higher compression settings. I'm not sure what kind of licensing is in place for it.

Luckily, FLAC is, to my understanding, not really much more difficult to decode than Ogg Vorbis, no matter what the compression setting (all the hard work goes in at the encoding stage) making it a much more ideal lossless format for portable players. It's also, like Ogg Vorbis, totally free for anyone to use as they please, comercially or otherwise.

MP3, AAC, and WMA support all seem to be fairly standard these days, and as long as I have that and ogg/flac and true gapless support, I'm perfectly happy. Anything extra is just a pleasant bonus.