[bagwell359]

Thanks for the update. Certainly, there's no doubt that comparison of the NDH 30 with the 800 series is much more appropriate than comparison with the 600 series. The NDH 30 and the 800 series are in the same class. The 600 series is not. When and if I try the S2 and I find it to be in the same class as the 800 series and NDH 30 and in a different class to the rest of the 600 series, I will retract my words.

Interesting. You say 600 Series, does that include the 600?

If so, did you have the 600 on the same equipment as the NDH 30? Overall anytime on an OTL amp? While nothing can get the 600 to soundstage like the others - in terms of timbre from 100 Hz - up on the BHCs, no EQ, I found it better than an early 800S, in particular with solo piano. The 800S was actually wanky tinbre wise, not in any other way. Haven't heard the S2, not long enough with the NDH 30.

The 650 isn't as good as the 600 either in this regard.

 

[Mike F]

Interesting. You say 600 Series, does that include the 600?

If so, did you have the 600 on the same equipment as the NDH 30? Overall anytime on an OTL amp? While nothing can get the 600 to soundstage like the others - in terms of timbre from 100 Hz - up on the BHCs, no EQ, I found it better than an early 800S, in particular with solo piano. Haven't heard the S2, not long enough with the NDH 30.

The 650 isn't as good as the 600 either in this regard.

I meant the six series, including the HD 600.

Yes, I've tried all of them on the same amps (HDVD800 and Lehmann Audio Linear SE). I don't have any tube amps - I'm just a solid state studio monitor guy. My monitors are ATC SCM100ASL and PMC TB1. My HD 600 is one of the early ones with the black screen. To be honest I've never really liked it - I always preferred my HD 580 Precision, and think the HD 650 is better. I've always found the mids too forward on the HD 600. Personal taste. The timbre, particularly mid range, of the 600/650 is hard to beat though. Better than my HD 800. The NDH 30 has the same correct timbre for acoustic instruments as the 600/650, but with better everything else.......

 

[bagwell359]

I meant the six series, including the HD 600.

Yes, I've tried all of them on the same amps (HDVD800 and Lehmann Audio Linear SE). I don't have any tube amps - I'm just a solid state studio monitor guy. My monitors are ATC SCM100ASL and PMC TB1. My HD 600 is one of the early ones with the black screen. To be honest I've never really liked it - I always preferred my HD 580 Precision, and think the HD 650 is better. I've always found the mids too forward on the HD 600. Personal taste. The timbre, particularly mid range, of the 600/650 is hard to beat though. Better than my HD 800. The NDH 30 has the same correct timbre for acoustic instruments as the 600/650, but with better everything else.......

Fair. I gave up on tubes for speaker use many years ago, since I was a estat/maggie/ribbon guy. I find, even using the XLR output from my Rag 1 to result in an overly Listerene experience with the 600 - esp in low->mid treble. I could hear its strong points, but, it wasn't enjoyable at times. Queue up the HE-500, and the 600 got mothballed.

Then @SilverEars lent me his stock BHC amp. and hola! Harmonic sense restored, 3 blob soundstage now 5 blobs with better placement, Bass with judicious EQ can put out to under 40 Hz decent bass (lacking impact, but very good speed/timbre, good for most non bass head music). I bought my own BHC kit, then added the S, and a lot of upgraded parts. It would be the cheapest way IMO to get a sound that actually approaches real music. Used HD-600 (fresh stock pads) and XDUOO T-26 ($319 new). Some way to feed it 192/24 cheap, viola! It also needs less EQ help than almost any other can I have heard.

When I had the HD-800S (early) no EQ, CD's, and an 800 OG (6k mod) w/ parametric, TIDAL MQA on my BHCs had the stage/placement way over the 600, and harmonics much better than SS, but they both need EQ to get the timbre improved. Using average recorded studio amplified music its not that easy to hear the timbre issues quickly, and ear burn-in will hide it. But stuff like Krall, audiophile acoustic recordings, and solo piano reveals the 800/800S/HE-500/HE-6 SE as off. They can be all be improved with careful parametric EQ, but not sure any of them can be perfected for those recordings - but say Cowboy Junkies to Steely Dan to Miles Davis (careful of Columbia treble) to Soundgarden to Jane Ira Bloom... no problems.

 

[ThEvil0nE]

I suspect that’s a “paid award”, if you know what I mean. Not that I disagree with the award, we just have to be realistic about how these things are handed out.

Even a Red Dot badge can be had easy.

 

[jamesjames]

Just to complete my contribution here, my intention in sketching out impressions of the NDH30 above wasn't to convince anyone of the merits of any of the phones I've mentioned (including the Neumann). It was simply to give an idea of what I happen to like, why, and how I reacted to the Neumann - to help readers who don't already own it to decide whether it might be worth further investigation. Obviously, I like the NDH30 - and I guess readers who share my tastes might like it too. But I've learned my tastes are far from universally shared ...

 

[soundblast75]

Just received my Hart Audio cable and am very pleasantly surprised, quality it superb and bass has increased

 

[Plieb]

Received my xlr from fog city yesterday. Very well made. No problems wih insertion into phone. Was a bit disappointed with sound when i initially listened. Sounded a bit too subdued. However today i can safely say it is superior to my original SE setup with my amp. Very smooth and transparent with much more headroom via balanced output. I think i was was too accustomed to my brighter 660S.
Causing me to initially think the Neumann's sounded a bit dull.
Very happy with purchase.

 

[bagwell359]

Received my xlr from fog city yesterday. Very well made. No problems wih insertion into phone. Was a bit disappointed with sound when i initially listened. Sounded a bit too subdued. However today i can safely say it is superior to my original SE setup with my amp. Very smooth and transparent with much more headroom via balanced output. I think i was was too accustomed to my brighter 660S.
Causing me to initially think the Neumann's sounded a bit dull.
Very happy with purchase.

Please check the details on how your amp works with SE and XLR. Some have no difference, many have different output impedance, damping factor, and output. I would only compare SE to SE and XLR and XLR to each other unless it was clear that the amp behaved the same, and still XLR reject noise better than SE cables all things being equal.

 

[Plieb]

Please check the details on how your amp works with SE and XLR. Some have no difference, many have different output impedance, damping factor, and output. I would only compare SE to SE and XLR and XLR to each other unless it was clear that the amp behaved the same, and still XLR reject noise better than SE cables all things being equal.

Singxer sa1 which uses balanced circuitry with single ended or balanced input. The only difference is that going in single ended the gain is 17db vs 11db for balanced. Hence the volume level is bumped up for single ended to match balanced input.
At any rate i was comparing 660s to ndh30 single ended input and balanced output for both phones. Impedance for both are almost the same.

 

[bagwell359]

Singxer sa1 which uses balanced circuitry with single ended or balanced input. The only difference is that going in single ended the gain is 17db vs 11db for balanced. Hence the volume level is bumped up for single ended to match balanced input.
At any rate i was comparing 660s to ndh30 single ended input and balanced output for both phones. Impedance for both are almost the same.

Not so. ASR reports RMS of 2.1 into SE, and 4.0 into XLR. The output impedance is .7 ohms on SE and double that into balanced. It also appears to be sliding bias class A, not 100% class A.

According to those numbers I would expect the XLR to sound different if not better. Balanced has common mode rejection which is esp easier to hear with headphones tends to have less noise in the signal path. Personally I have learned over the last 25 years that balanced and single ended are rarely the same in given cases - in my experience.

 

[Plieb]

Not so. ASR reports RMS of 2.1 into SE, and 4.0 into XLR. The output impedance is .7 ohms on SE and double that into balanced. It also appears to be sliding bias class A, not 100% class A.

According to those numbers I would expect the XLR to sound different if not better. Balanced has common mode rejection which is esp easier to hear with headphones tends to have less noise in the signal path. Personally I have learned over the last 25 years that balanced and single ended are rarely the same in given cases - in my experience.

Ok but am i not correct that single ended dacs are usually 2.1 volts input and balanced dacs 4 volts? Hence singxer compensates by increasing the gain for single ended input. That is why Zeos mentioned that there was no difference in volume switching from balanced input to single ended input.
However my main point was that sennheiser 660s vs ndh30 using the same input and output resulted in smoother more laid back sound from the ndh30.
This is from the designer of the singxer which shows that the gain was increased for single ended input vs balanced. 17db vs 11db. respectfully.

 

[jamesjames]

Voltage output of the amp section is the relevant factor for the headphone output, not inputs to amp/DAC. Differential (balanced) circuitry in the amp can affect distortion via increased power and common mode noise rejection. Higher voltage at the amp output can affect output impedance and 'damping'. A 4-pin XLR 'balanced' headphone cable, however, is not balanced in the same way differential circuits and 3-pin component XLR interconnects are balanced - it provides no common mode noise rejection. It simply provides separate positive and negative signal paths on both channels (which may provide some benefit, although this is controversial).

 

[Flisker]

That's good.

 

[bagwell359]

Voltage output of the amp section is the relevant factor for the headphone output, not inputs to amp/DAC. Differential (balanced) circuitry in the amp can affect distortion via increased power and common mode noise rejection. Higher voltage at the amp output can affect output impedance and 'damping'. A 4-pin XLR 'balanced' headphone cable, however, is not balanced in the same way differential circuits and 3-pin component XLR interconnects are balanced - it provides no common mode noise rejection. It simply provides separate positive and negative signal paths on both channels (which may provide some benefit, although this is controversial).

Yes XLR balanced to the phones does not give the common mode noise rejection. But, on the amp side to headphones the SE and balanced characteristics have to be looked at as another topic. Certainly my Rag 1 is far more capable into 4 pin balanced than SE. Specs hard to come by for the Bryston BHA-1, but the balanced also seems more capable than the SE. On previous equipment such as the Pass X-150, Adcom GFP-750, I found the same thing. My experience says more often than not, SE and XLR does not sound the same.

Also in that ASR review they said the SE performed worse when pushed than the balanced. I forget which aspect they were talking about, but while ASR's listening tests are have been badly marred by pre judging gear based on specs, the actual specs they publish do seem fairly bulletproof.

 

[Plieb]

Yes XLR balanced to the phones does not give the common mode noise rejection. But, on the amp side to headphones the SE and balanced characteristics have to be looked at as another topic. Certainly my Rag 1 is far more capable into 4 pin balanced than SE. Specs hard to come by for the Bryston BHA-1, but the balanced also seems more capable than the SE. On previous equipment such as the Pass X-150, Adcom GFP-750, I found the same thing. My experience says more often than not, SE and XLR does not sound the same.

Also in that ASR review they said the SE performed worse when pushed than the balanced. I forget which aspect they were talking about, but while ASR's listening tests are have been badly marred by pre judging gear based on specs, the actual specs they publish do seem fairly bulletproof.

Ok i would simply say this as a last thought. My Neumann"s sound much better when i use single ended in and balanced out vs single ended in and single ended out. Just not enough headroom using full single ended with SA 1.
Hence my next purchase will be a geshelli j2 balanced dac. Reasonable cost for that unit.