[Rob80b]

Rob, do you have the original pads on the S2?

Both the NDH30 and S2 are sporting leather pads, there is a slight variance with the Sennheiser but as it is more open it is not as pronounced as with the 30.
Also one has to keep in mind that the two phones are tuned quite differently, the S2 has been purposely voiced by Sennheiser to bring you into the music and are more upfront while the Neumann is more at arms length.
If we keep the difference in aural perspective in mind I would say they are fairly equal in performance, the S2 driver may have the edge in absolute technical performance but as Neumann purposely reduced the treble extension on the NDH30 it is really hard to tell.
And because of, even the change in pads cannot restore what is not there so bells and chimes have less audible harmonic overtones, still the Neumann is voiced rather flat so is the more balanced, even handed phone overall.
One doesn't compete with other IMHO, just different tools and cater to different preferences or situations.

 

[Plieb]

I notice many of you gentlepeople are on Tidal. In my listening tests Tidal didn't sound bad, but Qobuz still reliably beat it on most of the tracks. Perhaps what they say about MP3s upsampled to FLACs might be true. People mentioned that with regards to Deezer which is the muddiest-sounding of all. And there's no MQA on Qobuz either.

qobuz more transparent than tidal. Noticeably cleaner more air to the sound. Tidal bass muddy in comparison.

 

[Plieb]

Btw I find ndh30 in a class by itself for classical. This is the latest classical new releases on qobuz. Every one of these selections sound unreal.
The spaciousness, clarity, musicality,naturalness are just magnificent.

 

[Mike F]

Checking qobuz vs tidal throws up different opinions (no great surprise there), but the consensus seems to be that they both have advantages and which one you prefer might well depend on your system and, of course, your preferences.

I only have Tidal because my 14 year old son wanted a streaming service and at least Tidal gives more money to the artists than some others (Spotify at least) and has generally good audio quality. If I’m doing some serious listening I’m spinning discs on a Marantz SA-10.

 

[Mike F]

Both the NDH30 and S2 are sporting leather pads, there is a slight variance with the Sennheiser but as it is more open it is not as pronounced as with the 30.
Also one has to keep in mind that the two phones are tuned quite differently, the S2 has been purposely voiced by Sennheiser to bring you into the music and are more upfront while the Neumann is more at arms length.
If we keep the difference in aural perspective in mind I would say they are fairly equal in performance, the S2 driver may have the edge in absolute technical performance but as Neumann purposely reduced the treble extension on the NDH30 it is really hard to tell.
And because of, even the change in pads cannot restore what is not there so bells and chimes have less audible harmonic overtones, still the Neumann is voiced rather flat so is the more balanced, even handed phone overall.
One doesn't compete with other IMHO, just different tools and cater to different preferences or situations.

I’m wondering about your comments regarding the treble extension on the NDH 30. To help me put things into context, how would you compare the treble on the S2 to the original HD660S? Is it considerably more prominent?

 

[kman1211]

I’m wondering about your comments regarding the treble extension on the NDH 30. To help me put things into context, how would you compare the treble on the S2 to the original HD660S? Is it considerably more prominent?

I have both the S and S2 on hand, both stock without mods. The treble is somewhat more present on the S2 but nothing considerable.

 

[Mike F]

I have both the S and S2 on hand, both stock without mods. The treble is somewhat more present on the S2 but nothing considerable.

That’s what I thought, but not having both couldn’t be sure. I find the NDH 30 to have more clarity overall than the HD660S and more treble clarity as well. I’m trying to understand Rob’s comment:- ‘but as Neumann purposely reduced the treble extension on the NDH30…….’
That’s not my impression of their sound at all. Have you heard the NDH 30 yet? Can you throw anymore light on this @Rob80b?

 

[ThEvil0nE]

NDH 30’s treble is relatively neutral so you’re really not missing anything, everything is there.
I have only briefly heard of the S2 but if I have to make a comparison of their treble.. NDH 30 is like a good dry rubbed steak and the S2 is that but dipped in bbq sauce to give it a kick or zing.

 

[kman1211]

That’s what I thought, but not having both couldn’t be sure. I find the NDH 30 to have more clarity overall than the HD660S and more treble clarity as well. I’m trying to understand Rob’s comment:- ‘but as Neumann purposely reduced the treble extension on the NDH30…….’
That’s not my impression of their sound at all. Have you heard the NDH 30 yet? Can you throw anymore light on this @Rob80b?

Yeah the S2 has a smidgen of zest but not much, it's still clearly a Sennheiser. The extra bass body and warmth over the original S kind of counteracts the extra zest of the S2 as well. The HD 660S is more spacious and neutral than the HD 660S2 though, whereas the S2 is more resolving with some slight color added. Though I'm one of the weird people that like both the S2 and S a similar amount and wish Sennheiser never discontinued the original S. Honestly which I prefer depends on which system it's on and what mood I'm in.

 

[Mike F]

Yeah the S2 has a smidgen of zest but not much, it's still clearly a Sennheiser. The extra bass body and warmth over the original S kind of counteracts the extra zest of the S2 as well. The HD 660S is more spacious and neutral than the HD 660S2 though, whereas the S2 is more resolving with some slight color added. Though I'm one of the weird people that like both the S2 and S a similar amount and wish Sennheiser never discontinued the original S. Honestly which I prefer depends on which system it's on and what mood I'm in.

Good to know. I wasn’t in a hurry to sell my S1 and get an S2 and you’ve confirmed the picture I had built of the S2. Maybe one day, but I’m not sure I need it when I have the 650 and 660S.

Have you heard the NDH 30?

 

[kman1211]

Good to know. I wasn’t in a hurry to sell my S1 and get an S2 and you’ve confirmed the picture I had built of the S2. Maybe one day, but I’m not sure I need it when I have the 650 and 660S.

Have you heard the NDH 30?

The S2 is the better headphone from a technical standpoint and I get the feeling it will also scale more with gear. But I just like how the HD 660S is tuned. To me the HD 660S2 has pretty much replaced the role of the HD 650, I'm using my HD 650 less and less since getting the S2. The S filled in a different niche for me so I still use it a good amount.

I heard the NDH-30 felt a little underwhelmed by it, but I got the impression it's a headphone you have to spend time with to fully appreciate so I'm refraining from making any judgments on it unless I get a lot of time with it. Reason I opted for the S2 ultimately came down to comfort, the NDH-30 wasn't as comfortable to me as I hoped it would be, I'm very anal about comfort due to my tendency to have very long listening sessions.

 

[headstef]

The frequency response of the NDH 30 as measured by Oratory1990 (discussed elsewhere recently) does not prove that it sounds dark. FR graphs are just good tools for comparisons with other headphones - and conclusions are always relative among headphones measured with the same setup. For example, most headphones that follow well the Harman target curve (2018) in the treble as measured by Oratory, are usually perceived as rather bright by many users - certainly not dark (eg. 109 pro, Arya versions, other HiFiMan models etc.). It seems that, measured by this setup, a headphone has to exhibit a treble graph lower than the Harman target 2018 by a few dB to sound natural there (not bright, not dark). Harman target curve 2013 seems to reflect better what most people perceive as natural (not what they "prefer", though).

Below are some other FR measurements for NDH 30, showing different treble than Oratory's (who averaged various positions - a "mistake" in the case of NDH 30 which becomes disproportionately darker than becomes brighter at the wrong positions.)

https://thegreatestsong.com/neumann-ndh-30-review/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/neumann-ndh-30-review.44459/

Also, my measurements show that the NDH 30 actually sounds a bit brighter than the HD-650 up to about 11 kHz and slightly less bright over 14 kHz.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/neumann-ndh-30.963439/page-10#post-17226811

The above graph happens to reflect very well for my hearing how they compare (tonally) with each other.

 

[Rob80b]

I’m wondering about your comments regarding the treble extension on the NDH 30.

Hi Mike, Can only go with my own hearing and appears to correlate with measurements taken.

And I'm not making reference to brightness, the S2 is a warmer sounding can, but if one listens carefully the surrounding and upper harmonics on the NHD30 are attenuated indirect comparisons with a steep roll off at about 6K (?), this is not necessarily a bad thing, makes the headphone easy to listen to regardless of the type of recording but the S2 is fuller and also easy to listen to, much more so than HD660S which can on occasion have some roughness in the upper treble as it is relatively speaking a brighter sounding headphone than both.
Now my hearing is only good up till 10-11k so if there is more happening beyond that point I cannot comment.

 

[chesebert]

There are some real limitations in terms of measurements when it comes to FR curve in the upper mid and treble areas. 800S has a treble suck out between 8-10khz from most measuring rigs and 800S is anything but dark. I also note people have very different responses to 3-5khz as it all depends on their ear canal structure.

 

[headstef]

There are some real limitations in terms of measurements when it comes to FR curve in the upper mid and treble areas. 800S has a treble suck out between 8-10khz from most measuring rigs and 800S is anything but dark. I also note people have very different responses to 3-5khz as it all depends on their ear canal structure.

Quite true. One has to take into account many different measurements of a headphone (mostly comparative) by various measuring jigs - if any conclusions are to be based on measurements. Moreover, careful listening is irreplaceable for an individual's conclusions and decisions.