Network Attached Storage Drive?
Apr 26, 2007 at 9:15 PM Post #16 of 51
Frankly, you could easily run a file server on a 386 computer
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As for the switch you can pick up a cheap switch off newegg. I'd recommend any of the well known brands; ie. linksys, d-link, netgear...etc.
 
Apr 26, 2007 at 9:35 PM Post #17 of 51
Just keep in mind that a build-your-own box is likely to use more electricity. One of the advantages of the prebuilt NAS boxes is lower power requirements. I use a Buffalo Linkstation Gigabit 250GB. It's pretty simple and inexpensive, but effective and very low power (I keep it on 24/7 to serve my PCs, XBox Media Center, etc.). This doesn't have any redundance, though.

A friend of mine just graduated from a small army of Kuroboxes to a ReadyNAS NV+, and he's quite pleased with the arrangement. And this is a guy who definitely knows enough to build his own system if he felt it would be worthwhile. Just something to consider. A ReadyNAs NV+ will set you back a lot of $$$, but if you need a lot of storage with redundancy to prevent loss of data due to drive issues, it may well be a worthwhile investment.

-Packgrog
 
Apr 26, 2007 at 9:53 PM Post #18 of 51
Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiode /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Does a server have to have good specs? Building a file server sounds like the best option like you guys suggested, but could I do it for ~$200-400? I'm pretty experienced when it comes to building computers, as I put together the two I have now... but what are the most critical components in terms of speed (ie: hard drive, processor, etc...) for a server? Also, I'd have to get a router/switch to network the file server with my two computers. Which one though?


A server can be any old machine. I use an old PowerPC Mac Mini (1.4 GHz, 256MB of RAM), but any old machine off eBay is fine. A server isn't doing anything complicated, just moving bits around. You would need to get a router, of course, but you'd need a router with a NAS device too (unless it has a switch built in).
 
Apr 26, 2007 at 11:21 PM Post #19 of 51
Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiode /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Does a server have to have good specs? Building a file server sounds like the best option like you guys suggested, but could I do it for ~$200-400? I'm pretty experienced when it comes to building computers, as I put together the two I have now... but what are the most critical components in terms of speed (ie: hard drive, processor, etc...) for a server? Also, I'd have to get a router/switch to network the file server with my two computers. Which one though?


Three things to consider --
1) Do you really care if you loose your files? If that's a concern then using a more expensive NAS maybe better. But if it's just music files that you can (slowly) re-rip, that may not be an issue.

2) BYOPC is definitely cheaper, and you have to decide whether to use hardware raid or software raid (freenas, for example). If you want hardware raid, most of the current motherboard has built-in raid controller, but slightly more expensive.

3) If you don't mind running software raid, then you can probably use an old PC.

Oh -- router/switch -- you need a good gigabit switch that supports jumbo frame. Interesting enough, the Infrant website/wiki has a good list of good switches. I got mine for just under $100. You can get much cheaper gigabit switch, but they not necessarily support jumbo frame.

As many have said, you can certainly re-purpose an PC box, add a few disks, and run freenas for $400. It really depends on how failsafe you want this thing.

P.K.
 
Apr 27, 2007 at 1:18 AM Post #20 of 51
I doubt there's any difference in reliability between a software RAID and a "hardware" RAID. Most standalone NAS devices run an embedded version of FreeBSD or Linux anyway. It's just hidden software.
 
Apr 27, 2007 at 1:50 AM Post #21 of 51
An old (G4 or CoreDuo) Mac Mini would made a great file server, cheaper but more configurable than a good NAS. Low power consumption, too.

--Chris
 
Apr 27, 2007 at 2:01 AM Post #22 of 51
For the low end, consider an Apple Airport Extreme: add an external USB case and a hard drive, and you've got a NAS device and a decent wireless router. Daisy chain drives as need be, but it offers no redundancy.

I assume they work with PCs, too.
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Apr 27, 2007 at 2:05 AM Post #23 of 51
Is FreeNAS a standalone operating system, or is it software? And with it I would be able to remotely access it via FTP or a web interface? That'd be really cool! I hadn't really planned on it, but would I be able to host my own web pages as well?

What exactly do you mean when you say I need a "large frame"? Do you mean that I need to run a bottleneck-free network using all gigabit ethernet ports?
 
Apr 27, 2007 at 3:23 AM Post #24 of 51
Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiode /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Is FreeNAS a standalone operating system, or is it software? And with it I would be able to remotely access it via FTP or a web interface? That'd be really cool! I hadn't really planned on it, but would I be able to host my own web pages as well?

What exactly do you mean when you say I need a "large frame"? Do you mean that I need to run a bottleneck-free network using all gigabit ethernet ports?



Sorry. Wrong term. I meant "jumbo frame"
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It's a not completely supported extension to the TCP/IP protocol that let you transmit files in larger trunks. Since playing music and video over the network is just that, one way transmission of very large files, using jumbo frame speed things up a lot.
 
Apr 27, 2007 at 3:34 AM Post #25 of 51
So how exactly would I go about getting this jumbo frame? Also, does streaming music wirelessly or even wired degrade the quality?

By the way, I have a Belkin Pre-N Wireless Router downstairs, which is connected to my DSL modem. My main rig gets the connection via wireless, and shares it with the slave machine via an ethernet cable. I hadn't considered the possibility, but could I use that existing router to stream my music from? I thougt about it after Awk.Pine suggested an Apple Airport Extreme.
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Apr 27, 2007 at 4:08 AM Post #26 of 51
Quote:

Originally Posted by pkshiu /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Oh -- router/switch -- you need a good gigabit switch that supports jumbo frame. Interesting enough, the Infrant website/wiki has a good list of good switches. I got mine for just under $100. You can get much cheaper gigabit switch, but they not necessarily support jumbo frame.


How much of a performance gain have you experienced with jumbo frames? I tested it out a bit when I first implemented gbit on my htpc/file server network and it didn't seem to make too much of a difference. I remember the performance increase being somewhere well south of 10%

Quote:

So how exactly would I go about getting this jumbo frame? Also, does streaming music wirelessly or even wired degrade the quality?


You enable jumbo frames by making sure all your network components (switch/network cards/etc.) are jumbo frame capable, then enabling it under device properties in device manager. However, it's my opinion that you shouldn't worry about it because frankly, jumbo frames is overkill for any normal streaming data.

If you're going to only be playing mp3/flac/avi/mpeg (speaking in general, unless you happen to have some insanely high bitrate/high res avi/mpegs), simply getting regular gigabit ethernet will be plenty fast enough for it. The reason being the rate that the file is being played is far below the rate that the network is streaming the file. In fact, I wouldn't doubt that you could probably get away with a 100Mbit network, but there really isn't any reason not to go gigabit because the price difference in the network components is so slim.

Streaming wirelessly doesn't degrade the actual data quality unless the connection is bad. If the connection is bad, then all bets are off
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Wired doesn't have that worry, but it can also be degraded....but only if you have your network cable running through some horrible conditions that are bad enough to overcome the shielding in the cable.
 
Apr 27, 2007 at 6:44 AM Post #27 of 51
A few replies, but it's late and I'm not going to quote the posts I'm replying to. Ooops.

It's really too bad there aren't more viable platforms for low power computing. A simple ARM or MIPS CPU, a moderate amount of RAM and a DMA NIC are all you really need to do this. Unfortunately, aside from the prebuilt NAS units there aren't really any affordable products out there that offer this. It's really too bad we need to hack up Linksys routers and the like to get a simple low power computer for an embedded device. Epia is expensive, but might be worth it depending on what energy costs. It's really rather wasteful to use a full-fledged computer just to serve files to one or two client machines when it could be done with 1/10th the power usage if only the hardware were more readily available.

If you're going to build it yourself, I'd choose some hardware with modern interconnects. Yes, you could use a 386, but you're then limited to the speed of 16 bit ISA for both your disks and for your network. With a total available bus bandwidth that (IIRC) a 100mbit NIC can saturate, you're in trouble and you'll be lucky to get 5MB/s out of it without RAID (and probably much less due to the lack of DMA). At the very least I'd recommend a P3-class CPU, that gets you bus mastering PCI for your disks and network. Still not enough to saturate a gigabit LAN, especially with RAID - but it should get you into the 30-50MB/s range sans-RAID. For top performance you'll need a PCIe or PCI-X NIC and disk controller. PCI-X has been around for a while, but you'll only find it on server-class boards, which are $$$, as are the NICs and disk controllers for that bus. PCIe is much newer and it's hard to find NICs and disk controllers that use it. Your best bet if you want to go that route is to find a motherboard with an onboard PCIe NIC (this is getting easier, but many - most even - still use PCI for their onboard gigabit NICs). Most have the disk controller on the faster bus, however. With this setup your bottleneck will be the disks and not the bus. If you want to do software RAID5 you'll need (some) CPU speed, otherwise it doesn't really matter. RAID1 and RAID0 are trivial and barely touch the CPU at all. As was said though, you can build a workable system for pretty much nothing, aside from the cost of the disks, it just depends on the performance you're looking for as to what you should build. Streaming audio from it will work with virtually any hardware you can put together for free, this is a low bandwidth application, as long as you're prepared to wait while the files slowly copy over initially.

'Hardware' RAID these days is basically equivalent to software raid with the disadvantage that the on-disk format is proprietary and undocumented. Unless you're spending at least a few hundred bucks on a RAID controller, all of the actual RAID work happens in the driver, much like winmodems and most printers these days. With processor speed as cheap as it is it's really not worth it, especially for a dedicated device. I'd recommend software RAID unless you're willing to plop down the coin for a good RAID card. This also allows you to have cross-card arrays if you want many disks and have several cheap controllers. I would recommend putting a maximum of one disk per channel on any IDE controller though, the IDE bus doesn't handle reading/writing from/to multiple devices at the same time very well at all and it'll kill performance.

Freenas is based on FreeBSD, but the distribution includes everything you need for a working system. You don't need an OS, the stripped down FreeBSD core is an integral part of it. All you need is a computer and Freenas to set one up. I don't know if the NAS storage itself is accessible from the web interface (which is normally used for configuration), but it definitely is via FTP, Windows shares, NFS, etc. You should be able to set it up to serve other web data as well, but it might take some work.

Jumbo frames - I wouldn't really worry about it. GigE is still probably faster than your disks are anyway. You should be able to make 75MB/s on the wire easily without jumbo frames, and probably can better that with good hardware. If you're just concerned about streaming audio and video, even a cheap 100mbit network with a hub would suffice. Few media files reach anywhere near the 10MB/s or so you can realize with such a setup. As was mentioned, a vanilla GigE setup can easily do 5x that which is fast enough for any media currently available.

Data degradation - there are integrity checks in multiple places in the network stack to detect this. When an error is detected, the network stack will usually automatically retransmit the data until it's correct - you'll get a performance hit but you won't get the wrong data. For the rare case where a retransmit isn't possible (or fails several times), you'll get an outright failure. If the bits you get out of the network are wrong, your network is seriously broken. Network hardware is designed to fail completely or work completely, there is no middle ground (statistically relevant, anyway). The bit error rate of modern networks is astronomically low to begin with, and when errors do occur they should be detected by the layer 2 FCS. If that fails, TCP includes a CRC check. Basically you stack 3 one-in-a-million chances on top of each other to get a one-in-10-lifetimes chance of an error being missed and the wrong data getting passed.

And that post was too long. Sorry.
 
Apr 27, 2007 at 10:49 AM Post #28 of 51
I appreciate all of the helpful info! I'm about to leave for school, but when I get home I'm going to see how cheap I can put together a server and get your opinions.
 
Apr 27, 2007 at 5:47 PM Post #29 of 51
Quote:

Originally Posted by pkshiu /img/forum/go_quote.gif
That's the one that I have, the NV+ with the extra memory. I bought it bayless and added drives over time, since drive price always falls. I would just wait on drive sales to pick them up.

I noticed in your sig that you have a zhaolu D2. I assume you are feeding it via optical and use it as a DAC? How do you like it?



Woops, sorry, I haven't checked this thread in a little while. I haven't modded it at all. To me, it sounds rather ordinary, no real wow or sudden increase in clarity. I have had people tell me that I'm doing myself a disservice by not modding it, but I'm not really into DIY at all. That said, it does its job alright. There are a few niggles that I don't like, but for the price, I don't expect much more.

I am feeding it coaxial, by the way, not optical.

Edit: In response to those that advocate building a system over building a NAS, it really depends. I just want a fileserver -- that's all. Why do I need the expandability of a brand new computer? Also, a NAS is small. An SFF system is also small, but not as small. A NAS is an integrated solution for reliability and storage needs. A computer is just another computer -- sure, you can do whatever you want with it, but only if you're actually going to do all that. All in all, building a relatively low power modern computer with a RAID card won't be any cheaper than a $600-750 NAS box + hard drives. If you skip the RAID, you save a lot, but you also miss out on a lot.
 
Apr 27, 2007 at 7:41 PM Post #30 of 51
For all the latest news in consumer NAS devices, take a look at Engadget, which covers all the new announcements. Leading vendors are Buffalo, Princeton, Planex, Linksys.

I've been thinking about moving to a NAS RAID solution for all the reasons discussed in this thread:

1. disk space -- for lossless large music libraries, you suddenly have a good use for 1.5TB of space on a single logical drive;
2. power consumption -- should be less than running a PC;
3. convenience -- I'm not interested in administering a server in my off hours;
4. backup -- RAID 5 is the cheapest way to protect yourself from drive failure (e.g., 4 drives striped so that no data is lost if any one drive fails).

This set of criteria means you need a 4+ drive NAS that supports RAID 5. The Drobo "storage robot" is the first solution that offers everything I'd want. Unfortunately, it's still expensive ($700 w/o drives).
 

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