[InSides]

Before I start, I should note I practically know nothing about vinyl. I figured it was something I never needed to know - alas! A couple of days ago, I came across several albums I've been searching for for years - conincidentally, they are on vinyl.

I have the transfer to CD's of those albums, but probably due to mastering issues, the CD's do suck, although they have been published by the same label. I went to a friend with a vintage turntable, gave them a spin - and the rest will, as they say... be history.

OK, so I need a turntable, right? Easier said than done. There are virtually no choices in Macedonia, the pickings are slim, so to speak. My audio dealer where I bought most of the equipment listed in my signature, carries Pro-Ject. I have been hearing a lot of good stuff on the Pro-Ject, so I thought about getting a Debut III, or an Xperience - cartridge included, and pretty straightforward for a newbie like myself.

Now, I was approached by the dealer regarding a display Pro-Ject RPM5. I figured that unit was a bit too much for me and my setup, so I thought I would turn it down, but the price is just so damn right for that unit [about half its retail]. So, I do have a couple of questions, and I do apologies for the larger intro:

1. What are the general thoughts on the Pro-Ject RPM5? Assuming I get it, I would use the built-in phono stage of my Rotel RC-03 [ad least for the time being], so bear that in mind.

2. The RPM5 comes fitted with an Ortofon 510 cartridge? Thoughts on this?

3. I need cartridge recommendations also.

4. Would I be able to attach a new cartridge myself, or do I need a proffessional?

5. Is there an online source that would answer my stupid newbie questions, explain how exactly a TT works, etc...?

Any other thoughts are more than welcome.

Oh, one more thing - the total budget for the turntable and accessories is about $700, more or less. The TT itself I can get for ~$400 [note my intro above on the display model], so I should have ~$300 for a set of interconnects and an additional cartridge.

EDIT: Need to decide fast on this. I finally saved almost enough for a PPX3 Slam, and now this comes along. The faster I decide on this, the faster I can get back on the PPX3 side of things.

 

[InSides]

Anyone? I do really need all the input I can get.

 

[djbnh]

Try:

1) The Vinyl Engine, and

2) Todd The Vinyl Junkie in Head-fi forums.

Good luck.

 

[Ori]

I'm not familiar with the Pro-Ject tables you mentioned, but I can give you a general advice. For a $700 budget, you will have to compromise a little. Remember that you have to buy a phono stage too.
There are a few phono stages below $200, all using opamps. IMO you will do better just buying a vintage receiver or preamplifier that has a "phono" input. They are cheaper and some are much better than the basic $200 stages that you can buy new today. Some vintage preamplifiers that come to mind are Adcom GFP-1 and NAD 1020B, both discrete designs, available used around $100.
I suggest that you stick with high-output cartridges, i.e. those rated at 2.5mV or higher. In your price range, these will have to be MM (moving magnet). Your best bet would be a package deal, otherwise look for NOS cartridges on ebay. You will find Shure V-15 and ADC XLM (version II is quite popular) in good condition around $100. Of course, there is no guaranty on used gear.
I will also recommend buying a "stylus gauge", like the one made by Shure (about $25). It will allow you to set up the proper needle pressure for the cartridge that you buy. You should also buy a decent brush. Audioquest sells one for $15 and there are a few slightly more expensive. As a beginner, stay away from liquid cleaners, heavy clamps, fancy mats, etc. You will have time to check these out after you know a little bit more about vinyl playback.
One word regarding the turntable. For your budget, you are buying a basic unit. Think of it as a temporary solution. Many newbies buy a "purist" turntable and then they get fed up with the hassle and refuse to play vinyl. My recommendation id to buy a turntable and tonearm with either auto-lift or auto-stop. This basic feature would make life with vinyl a lot simpler. You can play a record and not have to constantly worry about the end of record while you are taking a nap... Playing records without that "constant stress"

is the only way to start. If you like it a lot, then you will decide for yourself if a purist turntable is for you or not. You may keep the user-friendly turntable as your casual unit, or for backup.
Vintage turntables you might want to consider are Sugden BD-2/A with the factory SAU-2 tonearm (auto-lift) and many belt-drive Harman-Kardon, Panasonic, Denon, JVC and other Japanese manufacturers. A few direct-drive turntables are fine too, but in general the belt-drive units are the "safer" pick.
Be prepared to tweak the grounding on the turntable and the phono stage. You might want to have some advice from your friend or the local shop.
Keep it simple and you might find vinyl a lot of fun!

 

[Garbz]

I'll go the opposite way and recomend a purists turntable. Yes you'll need to lift the arm at the end. It's a pain and potentially damaging forgetting about it, but it'll get you used to listening albums the old way. From start to end without walking out when you find a track that gets boring (something the iPod generation can't cope with

)

Before you go out and buy all the fancy guages etc talk to the dealer. I don't have anything other then a turntable and a turntable mat. Every 6 months or cartridge change i take it to my dealer to get all the settings such as weight antiskate VTA etc checked, provided free to customers. Ask if you can get the same service. I personally don't even know what weight mine is tracking at. It just works.

 

[InSides]

Thank you for your replies so far. Now to address some of the issues brought up:

1. I do have to state my current choices are either a Pro-Ject RPM5 or a Pro-Ject Debut III. I am leaning more towards the RPM5 though.

2. I am currently using the phono stage that is built-in in my preamplifier [Rotel RC-03], so I won't need one to get started. The Rotel stage allows for MM cartridges. Provided I like the experience, I might look into a more decent phono stage later on. Here are some snippets regarding the specifications of the RC-03's phono stage:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rotel RC-03 Specifications Frequency Response : Phono Input (MM) 20Hz-20kHz, ±0.5dB Input Sensitivity / Impedance : Phono Input (MM) 1.2mV / 68 kOhms Input Overload : Phono Input (MM) 160mV

3. The RPM5 is a manual turntable. I don't mind getting up and dealing with the arm - I rather like the idea of tinkering with my gear [although I do have an iPod - and I do occasionally skip tracks

].

4. My sister has a pair of SL-1200's coming in for her club gigs. It might give me more insight as to whether I'd stick with a manual purist turntable.

Now for some more questions:

I came across this cartridge - the price is right, and is labeled as a great entry point for vinyl starters - what do you guys think of it:

Shure M97xE

Thanks for the replies so far. Two more days for the decision to come through - I need to talk to my local audio dealer regarding his display RPM5 early Monday.

EDIT: Edited for clarification.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by InSides I came across this cartridge - the price is right, and is labeled as a great entry point for vinyl starters - what do you guys think of it: Shure M97xE

I had it for awhile and thought it was a rather polite sounding cartridge and just an average tracker, but it was OK.

My current cart is the Audio Technica 440ML, which can be thin/bright sounding in the wrong setups, but it tracks so incredibly well that it makes up for a hell of a lot. Even the last track on an LP sounds as good as the first with the 440ML (provided it wasn't damaged by past abuse with a misaligned cart). It's selling for $88.29 at the Needle Doctor, which is such an incredible bargain that I'm tempted to get another one just as backup. Not sure about its availability in Macedonia, though.

 

[memepool]

I would snap up that RPM-5 like a shot. Thats a much better deck than the Debut III and it's 400UKP discounted in the UK so if you can get it for half that do it.

You seem to have everything you need to get started. The Shure Stylus Force Gauge is a worthwhile accessory as arm counterweight calibrations are usually inaccurate.

The Shure cart you mention will give you a different flavour to the Ortofon, more bass bloom but it isn't necessarily that much better.

I would go for a Goldring 1042 or if you can still find one a Shure V15VxMR.

That latter was Shure's top cart but has recently been discontinued so they are getting rarer. Shure guarantee spare stylus's will be available for at least 5 years though so no worries there. This is highly regarded as the best moving magnet ever made.

When you get more money think about upgrading your amp as most decent phono stages will cost more than that one their own. If you like the Rotel sound look out for one of their older high end pre-power amps from the 1980's which have nice phono stages.

 

[InSides]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fewtch My current cart is the Audio Technica 440ML, which can be thin/bright sounding in the wrong setups, but it tracks so incredibly well that it makes up for a hell of a lot. Even the last track on an LP sounds as good as the first with the 440ML (provided it wasn't damaged by past abuse with a misaligned cart).

Sounds like something I would be definitely interested in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fewtch Not sure about its availability in Macedonia, though.

The reason I thought of the Shure is that I am certain that Todd will ship it to Macedonia. I am not sure about Vinyl Doctor, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool I would snap up that RPM-5 like a shot. Thats a much better deck than the Debut III and it's 400UKP discounted in the UK so if you can get it for half that do it.

And it has the looks to match.

I just hope it is still available come Monday.

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool If you can still find one a Shure V15VxMR.

Any pointersd as to current online sellers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool When you get more money think about upgrading your amp as most decent phono stages will cost more than that one their own. If you like the Rotel sound look out for one of their older high end pre-power amps from the 1980's which have nice phono stages.

I love the sound of my current setup. Granted, while it may not be top of the line, seems it's sonics were matched just for me.

memepool and others, I have several questions regarding phono stages, though:

1. Once I get a phono stage, regarding connections - I connect that to the TT, and then treat the phono stage as any other source [connect that to any line input on the preamp]. Is this correct?

2. Any recommendations on a phono stage at this point? Would a tubed phono stage even be smart considering my all solid-state setup?

Thanks for all your input, guys. I really appreciate it.

 

[Ori]

Quote:

Originally Posted by InSides my current choices are either a Pro-Ject RPM5 or a Pro-Ject Debut III

Don't go by looks! It might be a nice shape, but the tonearm rests in mid air - that's asking for trouble.
The RPM5 has an MDF platter and not sure what motor coupling, so be careful about its sonic signature. I'd listen to it at least for an hour with your cartridge of choice before buying. The Debut seems like basic technology, which sometimes is a good thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by InSides Shure M97xE

It's OK. Quite musical but a bit "polite". Whatever you buy, make sure the stylus is elliptical.

 

[jumping jupiters]

Your Rotel has specific RCA jacks for the phono stage...make sure you use them...phono stages are very different then, say the CD RCA jacks...most other components need not be exact, but the phono stage actually amplifies the signal (boosts it)...one thing for sure, never plug anything but a TT into the phono stage!!!

I can second the recommendation for a Goldring cartridge...I started out with a 1006 and I am currently upgrading it to the 1042 by buying another tip (they use the same body and are designed to be upgraded down the road). If the table comes with a cartridge I'd just get spinning tunes with that one first no matter what it is.

In a month or two from owning the table everything will begin to make sense to you...don't sweat it. Then you should start considering phono stages and cartridges...have fun first.

 

[InSides]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ori Don't go by looks! It might be a nice shape, but the tonearm rests in mid air - that's asking for trouble. The RPM5 has an MDF platter and not sure what motor coupling, so be careful about its sonic signature. I'd listen to it at least for an hour with your cartridge of choice before buying.

That's just it. I won't actually be able to listen to it with any other cartridge than the supplied Ortofon 510. Ad least, not for another month or so, and I need to decide on the TT as soon as possible.

I hate buying stuff I haven't tested - but I would also hate to miss out on a deal of this kind - I am sure I won't be able to get it later on, not with this price tag.

My only real chances of getting a cartridge I would better thatn the supplied 510 is to order it via Todd or some other online vendor willing to ship to Macedonia.

 

[peter braun]

I believe that Dave's restored and modified Thorens offer the best tables for the money-

www.vinylnirvana.com

The Thorens TD-160B Mk.II with SME3009 arm he has listed is especially nice. I bought a similiar Thorens from him except with a Rega RB250 arm mounted with Shure M97EX and the unit looks and operates like new.

 

[pawlowski6132]

And, this is more of a sidebar actually. For your budget you will have to make lots of compromises in sound. From what I understand, once you begin, vinyl is a very slippery slope and a long drop to the bottom. There isn't an area in this HIFI hobby of ours that is more high maintenance and expensive. If you do not want to be hands-on. don't go there. Once you start at your level, you will want to improve your sound and the spending will begin or, you will be left wanting. Have you looked at the price of cartridges, tone arms, phono stages, tables, weights, motors, platters, cleaners...even the price of good vinly is about $50 a piece for 180g pressings.

I'm trying to get into it too but, am waiting until I've done great reasearch so I can find a good used bargain, save up enough to do it right at the start so I can be happy for at least a year and then buy with an upgrade path in mind. I don't think you should rush into this.

 

[InSides]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawlowski6132 Have you looked at the price of cartridges, tone arms, phono stages, tables, weights, motors, platters, cleaners...even the price of good vinly is about $50 a piece for 180g pressings.

Actually, I have - and have started worrying. Alas, one of the good things about living in Macedonia is that so little options are actually available. Most items I want - I need to import, and the added charges of shipping, customs and taxes make it quite harder for me to go on a rampant shopping spree.

I am a fan of budget components, and I want my purchases to offer good return for the investment I've made. At this point, would it probably be wisest to go with a Debut III [everything setup, cartridge included] and use the Rotel's phono stage?

Could be. I can get a taste of vinyl, and provided I like it, I can plan on spending the big bucks later on in life. I am not willing to upgrade my entire system at this point anyhow.

That said, I am still itching over the RPM5. Fitted with one of the nicest tonearms Pro-Ject makes, and with the addition of a Shure or ATH cartridge, should provide for a very satisfying budget analog source - ad least I hope so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawlowski6132 I don't think you should rush into this.

Point taken. I still have a day to think this over. Provided I decide against it, my money goes over to Mikhail and a spanking new PPX3-6SN7 Slam. No matter what comes to pass, it is a win-win situation for my beloved HD-650.