[bkelly]

To Everyone,

I'll study the Headroom charts and just to make sure everyone is honest I may have one done one each of these phones. Also I suspect that some people are too strongly influedced by charts rather than in actul listening. If you would see the frequency response charts of even the best loudspeakers on earth you would be absolutely astounded at what the charts looked like. None of them are flat, and, unless they are showing it on a small scale there will be peaks, spikes, hills and valleys all over the place. As to how important this is it depends on where they in the spectrum. I think I can say acurately state that about ninety percent of what you are hearing is happening at 5,000 cycles and below. Above that and were talking ambience and atmosphere.

Also, I know that this science stuff seems important and it is but a frequency response chart will not tell you as much as you think about how well they reproduce sound. If it could everyone would be buying speakers with the best charts and no one in their right mind is doing that.

I'd like to take correct a statement I made earlier in this thread (I think it was this one, at least) that I listened to a master recording I made with the 600's and I said it was "unrecognizable". I've thought about that a lot since I said made that remark and I think that is way to strong a word for what I heard. I should have said that it was noticeably colored although in general it did sound nice.

I got my 590's back from Sennheisers yesterday and I listened to the recording again with both headphones and even though I liked the sound from the 590's more and thought it was noticeably more correct toanlly speaking I came away thinking that when it was all said and done it was colored too. Possibly to the same degree as the 600's.

This has brought me to what I think of as a more enlightened view of both of these units and that is that neither of these headphones is perfect and it could be argued that they are both about the same distance from 100% totally perfect. Critics of the 600's are put off by the unusually tame presentation while it is argued by the other group that the 590's are too bright or aggressive sounding. Either way it's a matter of taste in the end as to which one you will like better. technically speaking I really don't think there is total winner between these two phones.

I will add that the additional gear to make the 600 sound their best is an annoyance to me. I think all your doing here is color matching to get the right blend and nothing more.

But, it is also, it is true that once you get over the initial reaction to their somewhat tame nature they are a joy to use.

T me the 590 are not bright as is often stated but they are slightly agressive and this can maake thme more difficult to listen to than the 600's. THey are alo kind of ugly compared to the 600's and not nearly as well built, either.

But here is where the the 590 really shines and that is that there seems to be basically two kinds of headphone listeners; those that enjoy the refined, sophisticated sound of the 600's and those that love the bright and lively Grado approach.

Well guess what? I have all three of these phones and I think I speak correctly when I say that the the 590's are dead center between these two extremes. I think that is the absolute best reason I can think of to seriously consider them when purchasing headphones.

I have already promised my 600's to someone else but even though I still prefer the 590 for what I do I am truthfully going to miss the 600's. One day I will probably buy another pair.

This experience has led me to one conclusion and that is: in a perfect world everybody would own both of these headphonhes.

In the end it seems more like a choice of red wine or white rather than which is better.

I am going to continue defending these phones forever if I have to but I am going to change my overall view and look at these two headhones as opposite sides of the same coin rather than heads I win tails you lose.

Now, don't anybody right me a bunch of nit-pickin, word defining, chart reading, semantic antics about my reply. Just sit back and dig the vibe. Get high on the Enlightment!

"kelly"'

Your the best! You get the RKV yet?






Love And Kisses To All
Brian

 

[Eagle_Driver]

Oh, am I beginning to agree with Tyll Hertsens and Todd Green (both of Headroom) that the HD590's are inferior to even the older HD580's (which, though much harder than the HD600's to find new nowadays, are still fine cans for the $$$), let alone the HD600's?

Well, if that's the case, then maybe it's time for me to leave Team Etyheiser - and join Team Headroom!!

 

[kelly]

Brian
I think you have me confused with someone else. I've had my RKV for some time now.

Regarding your division of headphones into two camps--Sennheiser lovers who desire sophistication and beauty and Grado lovers who desire aggressive and bright, I ask you this: In which camp would you place someone who loves the sound of Stax, Joseph Grado and Etymotic?

I would agree that the HD590 is like a cross between the HD600 and the SR-325, but in my perspective, it inherits the worst of both camps and I would not agree that the midpoint between any two errors is a truth.

 

[acs236]

I'm still perplexed by the description of the 590s as agressive (or midpoint between 580/600 and Grado). It leada me to believe that the tone quality of the 580s, which I have described as "slightly muffled" is different from what others have described as "laid back". In the hopes being able to better understand the terminology -- how would you guys describe the Ety 4s's in terms of agressive/laid back?

I feel as if I need to go back to the shop and listen to some Grados again -- it has been quite a while for me. However, the pushy salesman never leaves me alone. Is it worth it? I'll have to decide.

 

[Eagle_Driver]

Quote:

Originally posted by kelly ...the HD590 is like a cross between the HD600 and the SR-325, but in my perspective, it inherits the worst of both camps...

I agree with that part of your statement, kelly. That's exactly what I thought of *my* HD590's - they're like listening to two different radio stations, neither of which properly tuned, at the same time. Murky, laid-back, over-bright and incoherent all at the same time. On some decent equipment nonetheless.

The following is a quote from a reviewer who rated the HD590's one star (out of five) on AudioREVIEW (note that I've edited the quote to fit the purposes of my HD590 vs. HD600 experience):

Quote:

I was demoing some headphones at a local dealer- mainly concentrating on the 565 ovations that were on offer and I asked to hear the 590s which were supposed to replace the 580s. I thought that there would be a huge improvement since I've been impressed by every other Sennheiser product. What a pile of trash! I could just about make out that the treble was in stereo but the mid and bass seemed to stay right in the middle of the 'phones no matter what music was played. The cans were not, or the connections were not faulty in any way. The bass was not at all deep, the treble was false and the overall sound lacked coherency. Don't even bother demoing these. Get a pair of Grado Sr125s @£150, the 580 precisions @£200 or even the old 565s@£150 if you can find any left. Good luck!

The downfall of Sennheiser began in late 1998 with the introduction of its "bionetic" line of headphones (HD500/570/590 and HD490 initially; HD495 and limited-edition HD575 added later) and its trokklian-cruiser-styled "Headmax" line of headphones (HD400 and HD470) to replace the tried-and-true HD525/535/545/565 and HD445/455/465/475 models. Most of those bionecrap and Deadmax headphones fall short of - and often WAY short of - Sennheiser's usual high standards of performance/sound quality. Even so, I wouldn't quite rate the HD590's only one star; in fact, I would have ultimately rated them three stars (out of five).

 

[Steve999]

Hey bkelly, I liked your analysis. I have heard the 600s but not the 590s. But let me say... if I liked the sound of a pair of headphones, I'm not sure I'd worry about what other people thought of them! What's nice about this forum is comparing notes and impressions and sharing the experience and putting into words what you're going through in what is a bit of an isolated but highly enjoyable activity (wearing headphones). And that seems like what you're getting at a little, maybe you like bright, maybe you like reserved, why insult someone else's preference, or pretend one is superior? And why worry about which graph looks the best? And was it it my imagination, or didn't the 590 and 600 graphs look nearly identical until you got pretty well into the high frequencies? It's just bright versus not so bright, it would seem. What's to argue about that? It would be nice to have both, real nice. I sure wouldn't turn it down.

 

[bkelly]

Kelly'

Your killing me. I was right when I said dead center between two phones that are left and right of dead center. In my opinion the Grados are too bright and the 600 are so tame but the 590 have got a nice balance, neither bright nor tame.

I often hear that the 590 are too bright but I think that is from owners of other headphones (notably the HD600's) who put on the 590's and dismiss them before they even really hear them. It took me six weeeks of listening to the 600's to quit laughing at their tame presentation but after I did get over the initial reaction I began to like them for what they do well and left it at that. Right now I only know one person who owns both headphones and he is more or less has the smae opinio as me -- they are both very close in over all quality while at the same time they are different from each other.

You are right I did forget that you already had the RKV.

You once recommended I try the 931 and I am pretty close but even the owner says that they are way too bright. What is the scoop?

ACS236,

The 580's are slightly muffled and the 590's are noticeably more upfront but calling them aggressive to the point of irritation or flaw is nuts.

I don't think anyone would argue that the Grados are not bright. They are very good with no other noticeable shortcoming but, never the less, they are bright. It's worth the hassle to check them out.

Eagle-Driver,

Your sudden near religuos like conversion to the 600's is highly suspect. But if it is genuine so be it.

What happened to selling me your 590's. You seemed to have glosssed over that. I am still wondering whether you truly have a pair or whether you have actually even heard them.

Steve999,

You struck a chord with me. You got that "enlightened" outlook I was talking about.

First off there is a good reason to have both of these phones -- they offer a different view of the same picture -- and while I prefer then 590's I am already sorry I sold the 600's.

Please keep in touch






Best
Brian

 

[kelly]

Brian
I agree with your friend that the DT931 is too bright -- but since I think the same thing of the HD590, it's possible that we may have different ideas of what "too bright" is. In other words, if you don't think the HD590 is too bright I think it increases your likliehood of liking the DT931.

I also got to hear the 931 from the 120ohm jack of my Corda amp. Jan Meier, who designed and sells the amp, says that 120ohm is the "international standard" for headphone jack impedance even though it seems most high end equipment manufacturers make it 0 ohm anyway (or as close as they can get to 0). The HD600 seems to very much like the 0ohm jack and when Meier met with the HD600's designer it was confirmed that they were designed for the 0ohm jacks.

(There's a point, I'm gettin' to it...) Since the 931 is Jan's favorite headphone (outside of maybe the K1000), Jan went ahead and built in the second jack for the Corda. When you plug into that jack instead of the 0ohm, you'll find the brightness greatly reduced and that the 931 is a more balanced phone. In fact, I'd say overall it's more balanced and more articulate than the HD600 and I think this would appeal to you. Because not everyone has or wants Jan's Corda amp, he also sells a little 120ohm adapter for the headphone (it's essentially just a good quality resistor). RickG says with this adapter and his amps, the headphone is not even a little bit bright and he seems to really like it. I'd like more time with it myself.

(Did that answer the question?)

You never told me which camp I was supposed to report to.

 

[fredpb]

Kelly:

The HD600 sometimes drive me nuts because my other phones and all my speaker systems reproduce most of the low notes of my CLASSICAL music, and most of that has some LOW stuff!

If you go by the Headroom response curves for freq response (there is a mid bass hump in the IMPEDANCE curve), there is a significant bass drop off in the HD600's and the Grado's.

The Premium LIttle headphone amp does push the HD600's a little, but it's the headphones and their inability to reproduce the very low range at a flat level compared to 1khz.

I love my HD600's. So much I ordered HD580's at a GOOD price from eBay for my bedroom system to use instead of the HD570's.

The music I listen to can make a room shudder with speakers. Or the HD570's shudder on your ears. The HD600's don't even quiver. The impact of the bass is part of the music. The HD600 does not deliver this. But the HD600 does deliver, to me, superbly in the rest of the freqs. I occasionally get the low bass thrill, and listen to the mids and highs all the time, so the HD600's do do their job more of the time than the HD570's.

Given that you can get HD570's for about $90 new, and HD580's for $130 new, it's a tough choice. Almost got the 590's, but they were gone.

Everyone's ears are completely different. Everyones tastes are different. To me, the HD600's are both love and hate. I love them, and love to hate their lack of lows. Oh well. Perhaps someday a headphone will do this and do it at a level I can afford.

 

[kelly]

fred
We have a major communication obstacle on this forum in that we don't all mean the same thing when we say "bass." I, for one (and for instance) care not at all about visceral bass impact in headphones. In fact, I find it fatiguing and would prefer to be without it more often than not. Conversely, I'm very annoyed with headphones and speakers that do not produce the very lowest notes audible in the frequency spectrum. That is to say: Hearing ALL of the music is important to me but feeling any of it is not.

With that in mind - the HD600 is only audibly missing the bottom octave and yes, I agree that it is complaint-worthy. However, it's fairly common. I listed the headphones that I thought did a better job of achieving that bottom octave audibly. Obviously not all of them have visceral bass impact, though--the Etymotic and Stax paticularly have very little impact at all.

 

[bifcake]

Quote:

Originally posted by bkelly Eagle-Driver, I am beginning to think that you want to be accepted by the HD600 crowd so badly you are beginning to say stuff that is irrational. Anyhow, I have defended you on another thread so it's nothing personal I just think you are getting little over-zealous and missing the mark in your reviews. You are obviously passionate about this stuff so I welcome you enthusiastic comments and I look forward to reading your posts. Best Wishes Brian Kelly

Brian,

You too should want to be accepted by the 600 crowd. I know you want to be different, I know you're a rebel. We have all acknowledged that, gave it the appropriate nod. You don't have to beat reviewers over the head with a baseball bat anymore. Now, not unlike the 60's hipsters, it's time for you to get with the program and blend into the greater whole of society.

 

[bifcake]

Quote:

Originally posted by bkelly To Everyone, I'd like to take correct a statement I made earlier in this thread (I think it was this one, at least) that I listened to a master recording I made with the 600's and I said it was "unrecognizable". I've thought about that a lot since I said made that remark and I think that is way to strong a word for what I heard. I should have said that it was noticeably colored although in general it did sound nice. I got my 590's back from Sennheisers yesterday and I listened to the recording again with both headphones I came away thinking that when it was all said and done it was colored too. Possibly to the same degree as the 600's. This has brought me to what I think of as a more enlightened view of both of these units and that is that neither of these headphones is perfect and it could be argued that they are both about the same distance from 100% totally perfect. technically speaking I really don't think there is total winner between these two phones. But, it is also, it is true that once you get over the initial reaction to their somewhat tame nature they are a joy to use. T me the 590 are not bright as is often stated but they are slightly agressive and this can maake thme more difficult to listen to than the 600's. THey are alo kind of ugly compared to the 600's and not nearly as well built, either. there seems to be basically two kinds of headphone listeners; those that enjoy the refined, sophisticated sound of the 600's and those that love the bright and lively Grado approach. I have already promised my 600's to someone else but even though I still prefer the 590 for what I do I am truthfully going to miss the 600's. One day I will probably buy another pair. This experience has led me to one conclusion and that is: in a perfect world everybody would own both of these headphonhes. In the end it seems more like a choice of red wine or white rather than which is better. Love And Kisses To All Brian

There you go!!! That's what I'm talking about! The Hippie's dead! Long live the corporate drone!!!

Remember Brian, individuality is fine as long as we all do it together.

 

[Eagle_Driver]

Quote:

Originally posted by bkelly Eagle-Driver, Your sudden near religuos like conversion to the 600's is highly suspect. But if it is genuine so be it. What happened to selling me your 590's. You seemed to have glosssed over that. I am still wondering whether you truly have a pair or whether you have actually even heard them.

I truly own a pair of the HD590's. They didn't exactly wow me when I first heard them (I bought them new), and they still don't. And another pair that I demoed sounded almost exactly identical to mine.

So, maybe I should buy a really expensive, home-use-only amp (or at least a transportable Cosmic Reference) just for the 590's. The problem is that while the 590's may be "more efficient" than the 600's per se, for all practical purposes the 590's actually need more power than the 600's in order to "sound good". Out of even mid-fi equipment, the 590's are *slightly* louder than the 600's, but sound murkier and more aggressive both at once.

 

[SonicFlux]

For those of you who have tried the HD490/580 and HD600:

Is there any comfort difference between them?

 

[bkelly]

Eagle_Driver,

You confuse me . When I read some of your responses I think your an absolute amatuer and the next post I think you seem like a well meaning, nice person even if you do seem overly excited by the HD600 experience. I truly hope it is the second choice which is moore accurate.

Anyhow, I've had a chance to look at the Headroom charts and just as I said in an earlier post I think you have misinterpreted the results. On this chart they are using 1K as the baseline (I think that is rigth, I am not actually looking at it) which for the purpose of comparing the two headphones technically is a reasonable approacch. However, if you were to compare the two phones in use you would see that these two graphs would be brought more in line. In other words, to achieve the same listening levels as the 600 you would not be playing the 590's as loud as this graph indicates. Once this is factored into this graph these phones would be much more in line with each other than has been indicated on these charts.

Also, don't forget what is happening at 14k is not as important as what is happening at the lower numbers (meaning 100 cycles, 500 cycles and 3k and 5k). It's important alright but since there is less informtion in the higher extremes it ultimately has less effect on the sound.

One thing this chart points out is that the bottom end of these phones is very similar but on another thread the 600 fans went wild at how much better the bass was one the 600's than the 590's. Funny, that is not what the chart shows!

The one thing that really seperates the 590 from the 600's is the percieved (I haven't tested it) response time of the drivers. The 600's sound muted becaue in my opinion they are slower to react than the drivers in the 590's. This, I think gives them a nice sound much in the way that tubes have a nice sound because tubes do the same thing by softening the peaks. All that may be desireable to audio nuts but what it doesn't do is make them more tonally accurate which has been my argument against a wholesale acceptance of these phones right from the very beginning. I think, in the end, it is just as I say, these two phones are opposite equals. On a scale of 100 I'd give them both an 85 but for different reasons.

More tomorrow.

Bifcake,

One thing is for sure. You are the funniest !@#$%^&*()_+ (count the characters and you will figure it out, especially if you start with "M") on this site.







Best
Brian