[recephasan]

Hi all,

I have recently purchased the cheapest Sony Turntable with a built-in preamp and realized that I miss the sound of vinyl (uh!) and decided to return the Sony and go for something that sounds better for less than $300. I do not have a clue as to what is out there.

The amp I currently use with the Sony turntable is the Grado RA1 and the cans are RS-1. I will need a preamp if I go with a serious turntable and might opt for getting a receiver with a built-in preamp and headphone output. But again, I do not know what I want or what a good preamp costs.

I will use this system until SACD muscles its way into mainstream and will probably go back to it occasionally even after that, so I want a decent sound without pouring my life savings into it.

There's the Technics 1200 out there. Do I need a new tonearm? What cartridge should I use? What about a preamp? Of course, there is no way this setup will cost close to $300.
Then there is the Denon DP26F for $130 with a built-in preamp.
Of course, I could stay with the Sony which has lots of problems resolving detail. Maybe it's the cartridge - if I get a better one, will it sound adequate?

Grrr - why the heck am I getting into another money spending venture, I have no idea.

Please help. Thank you all in advance.

 

[carlo]

we're talking $300 including phono stage and cartridge right? if so, you have two options for the table: a)buy used or b)buy the technics -which i'll help you with for tweaks - or the new cheap music hall table (which i haven't heard); forget about the denon. should you decide to go used you'll need to take the time to research whatever (probably vintage) table you want to buy, then make sure the dealer is someone you can trust. turntables are mechanical, therefore there's a lot that can go wrong.

so, should you buy the technics, which was my first turntable and started me down the long road of analog bliss, here's what you need to do to get satisfying sound on the cheap:

dampen the chassis: pick up a roll of dynamat; stuff's great, relatively cheap, and easy to apply so a $20 roll is a good investment (you'll have some left over for other components). open up the table and place dynamat wherever you can, just obviously not under the springs and their assemblies. but everywhere there's a piece of chassis stick it in there. use a blow dryer when you're done to warm up the adhesive and push down the dynamat.

dampen the platter: once again, turn to dynamat (but the spray this time: dynashield). remove the platter (i remember it was a bit tricky, buy exactly what was up escapes me at the moment. it was easy to figure out though) and spray multiple light coats of the shield to it. don't do the underside too much but hit the rest. don't over do it so the motor can maintain stable speed control.

toss the mat: go out and acquire a thin piece of cork that's the same diamater as your platter. spray one side of it with dynashield and leave the other bare. flip it over according to tastes when listening (the cork will have some top energy if you find it lacking). i picked this up from tnt-audio years ago, as a suggestion its a great place for cheap tweaks but i've gound some of the stuff sorely lacking.

replace the audio technica cartridge: its p-mount, so your options are slim (down the line you may be tempted to keep the table and just get a sumiko blue point cartridge, don't: when you upgrade do it with the table) but grado's wooly low end cartridges are great for this table. pick of the grado black or one of their z series cartridges for $30-40 and be done with it.

disconnect the dustcover and only use it when not listening, search for cheap isolation suggestions: just a good idea for any turntable.

for your phono stage go with the nad. the parasound is nice and there's people who've completely modded theirs and claim great things, but unless you're willing to mod it the stock nad does better than the parasound with the table. there's of course other options out there, but i since i can't speak to their sound i'll point you to the archives.

welcome to the world of analog, its nicer over here.

 

[recephasan]

Carlo,

Is the new Music Hall turntable you mention the MMF 2.1 that sells for $255 or the MMF 1 for $180?
Is the NAD preamp you mention the PP-1 that sells for $110?
Is the Parasound preamp the one for $900?

Seems like if I get the MMF and the NAD, it will hurt but not much.
Also, what is your experience with phono preamps vs. the preamps on receivers? The Panasonic SA-HE100 receiver has a good headphone out and a preamp that I might save the $110 for the NAD with.

Also, decibelaudio which sells the MMF says they have the Music Hall Tracker cartridge as an upgrade. Do you know how this rates versus the Grados?

You've already been helpful. Thank you.

 

[Hirsch]

FWIW it's worth, I tried a Grado Red on a Music Hall MMF 2.1 The hum was too much for me, and I switched cartridges. This is a known issue between Grado cartridges and some turntables.

 

[carlo]

recephasan,

hey, not a problem at all, glad to help. i was thinking of the mmf 1... the mmf2.1 is a good choice (haven't heard one in a damned long time but remember it was okay) but not sure if you can stretch your budget that far? if you can stretch it a tad bit more there's the nad turntable with the oem'd rega rb250 tonearm, which you can take along with you should you ever upgrade. any of these tables (or to be accurate their tonearms) are no longer p-mount, so you'll open up from more quality cartridges being available.

you've got the right nad phono stage, the parasound was the p-1 or ph-1 or something... i forget. about that price cost though; it may have been discontinued, it seems like you've searched for it. my feeling about cheap phono stages vs stereo receivers' phono is this:

vs a modern day (post 1990) receiver: *generally* a seperate budget phono stage from nad or parasound will outperform it.

vs a vintage (mid to late 70s) reciever's phono stage those phono stages usually fall short. if you're willing to go used and experiment you can usually find a vintage reciever from one of the big hifi companies back then (harmon kardon, phillips, nad, marantz, etc), use its phono in and tape out, and get a kick ass phono stage for under $75. otherwise if new: the nad is where its at (be aware of shielding it and being ready to move it around to get it in an interference free place, more on this in a bit).

i have no clue about the music hall tracker, but to my ears the grado black is the best price/performance cart under $100 (as compared to the higher tolerance but same cart grado green, a couple of sumikos, an audiotechnica, a few other cheap carts who's sound fades from my memory). grado's low end prestige series (black, green, blue) are by no means the end all of carts, but their fat warm sound and the black/green's surprising control of the top end simply sounds better than the other stuff in its price range. move up to the grado gold and its a whole new world with the series (i love the grado gold), but simply put: they set the standard for a sub $100 cart and its only $40 (rumors of qc problems so you might want to go with the green, but if its a local dealer talk to them about trying the black. if its not a good one trade it in for the green).

hirsch,

i know about the grado v. other tables hum problem, but i thought the music hall had a shielded motor? weird happenings, but just so people know, its pretty easy to avoid the grado hum, if someone has a problem they can head to their local home improvement store, pick up some mu-metal on the cheap, and stick it between the platter and motor assembly (also the innards of cheap phono stages that like to pick up interference). grado doesn't shield their low end carts, hence the hum with certain tables (rega for one), but you can certainly shield the motor

for what its worth, i used grado cartridges in a rega planar 3 that wasn't tweaked with mu metal and had no hum problems. i know others experience the same... i guess its kind of hit or miss with grados and most tables (i haven't had one hum on me yet though).

regards,
carlo.

 

[qwerty870]

I have heard the Technics and the Denon. Do not buy them. Even the Music Hall MMF 1 will outperform them musically. The Music Hall MMF-1 and the NAD PP-1 would set you back $290. Thats what I'd do.

 

[recephasan]

OK then,

So I get the NAD PP-1, the Grado Cartridge, praying it does not hum, and a Music Hall turntable.
I'm still debating whether the MMF 2.1 is a significant improvement over the MMF 1, since I read people mentioning that the MMF 1 is built like what it costs (unlike other MMFs, I gather).

And yeah, that will set me back around $410 + tax/shipping for the MMF 2.1 and $335 +t/s for the MMF 1.

So I'm wondering if anyone knows how these two compare.

thank you all

 

[Beagle]

Quote:

Originally posted by carlo return to dynamat (but the spray this time: dynashield

Dynamat, Dynashield? Never heard of them. Where can you find this stuff?

 

[TimSchirmer]

nah... i wouldn't get a grado cart at all with the MMF-2.1. (the goldring sounds better anyway) If you must have a cartridge in the 40$ range, get something by signet.

 

[carlo]

Beagle,

i don't know what stores in the great white north have it, but circuit city, good guys, best buy, basically any electronics store in the united states with a car audio department stocks the stuff. the dynashield may be dynaspray (i've seen both names), same stuff. home improvement stores have tar sheets or liquid nails which will have the same effect, but its harder to work with and once again dynamat is relatively cheap and easily available (car dudes use it to cut down on door resonances and for some sound absorbtion).

regards,
carlo.

 

[qwerty870]

Keep the Goldring cartridge that comes with the turntable. Its decent, and grados don't work well with Music Hall tables.

I know its out of your price range, but a Rega 2 or 3 is even better that the MMF 1, 2.1, and 5 even, partly because of the great tonearm they come with. I would look for a used one on audiogon or ebay.

 

[SumB]

Quote:

I'm still debating whether the MMF 2.1 is a significant improvement over the MMF 1, since I read people mentioning that the MMF 1 is built like what it costs (unlike other MMFs, I gather).

The MMF1 is too limiting, in that the tonarm has no adjustments and can only accept the Music Hall cartridge. The substantial downfalls far outweight the modest cost savings.

If you don't mind buying vintage gear, consider a Thorens TD126+. These were built to a much higher standard than the entry level Music Halls, and you may luck out and find one with a nice Rega or SME arm under $200.

For phono stage, the Radioshack 'Little Rat' is held in high regard by budget minded audiophiles, and about half the cost of the NAD. The Parasound, Creek, and Rotel are other solid choices - about $100 on the used market.

 

[akshobhyavajra]

Quote:

Originally posted by qwerty870 I have heard the Technics and the Denon. Do not buy them. Even the Music Hall MMF 1 will outperform them musically.

Depends HOW the 1200 is set up - try a 1200 with tone arm fluid damper, Sumiko PREMIER HS 12 headshell, Cardas headshell leads, 16 oz mat, record clamp and Shure V15 - rather competitive, esp with a Monolithic phono.... The MMF 1 has no VTA, can't use other carts and is flimsy at best (I shipped one back after it arrived).

Also - the 1200 arm has an effective mass of 12 grams. This is rather nice, about the same as a RB300 arm with 11 grams.

With 12 grams one gets these figures:

Dynamic compliance - resonant frequency

10 - 14Hz
15 - 11.5 Hz
20 - 10 Hz
25 - 9 Hz
30 - 8 Hz

The resonance shall be well below the lowest frequency in the record and above vibration from record warp, footsteps etc.

The above compliances are OK. According to Hifi News test record a resonant frequency between 8 and 15 is desirable.

So the tonearm seems to accept both MC cartridges and more high compliant MM cartridges.

All in all the 1200 is more than surprising - if one does a little homework...

My $0.02 worth...

Regards,

~Michael~