need help in some explanation with dac-s build and statements

[Koalacola]

Recently i had to upgrade my phone and sadly since the world is hell bent on making things unnecessarily hard i need to buy a new type-c dac.
With many products you can see, for example 32-bit 384KHz which wants to show the "capacity" of the dac chip. For the frequency range/transmission of headphones/earphones, it is preferred to have a wider frequency range due to better audio quality. (at least this is a principle in many circles, of course it's more complicated).
What i don't get is that they sometimes don't come with data like frequency range or if they do they just state it with a range of 20hz-20khz what doesn't make sense given the 32bit/384khz data that they previously mentioned. Why is that ?? Why have a high res chip in your product when your output is on the side of the majority of bad quality headphones.

fyi i know of the medical information of human hearing but that doesn't give a reason for this kind of difference.

 

[Roseval]

32-bit 384KHz which wants to show the "capacity" of the dac chip

This the max the USB receiver can stomach. Around 2005 it was 16/48 but the processing power increased over time so you might as well play DSD. This is about the digital part.

20Hz-20kHz is a common range for the analog part. Say the linearity is +/- 0.1 dB in this range.

 

[Koalacola]

This the max the USB receiver can stomach. Around 2005 it was 16/48 but the processing power increased over time so you might as well play DSD. This is about the digital part.

20Hz-20kHz is a common range for the analog part. Say the linearity is +/- 0.1 dB in this range.

exactly ... i mean why have an average common range analog output on smth that internally outputs more but by the end of it, even if you have lets say an audeze 5-40khz headphones you stiill will only get the 20-20!!! it just doesn't really make sense to me, or there is smth that im not aware of.

 

[sunjam]

Recently i had to upgrade my phone and sadly since the world is hell bent on making things unnecessarily hard i need to buy a new type-c dac.
With many products you can see, for example 32-bit 384KHz which wants to show the "capacity" of the dac chip. For the frequency range/transmission of headphones/earphones, it is preferred to have a wider frequency range due to better audio quality. (at least this is a principle in many circles, of course it's more complicated).
What i don't get is that they sometimes don't come with data like frequency range or if they do they just state it with a range of 20hz-20khz what doesn't make sense given the 32bit/384khz data that they previously mentioned. Why is that ?? Why have a high res chip in your product when your output is on the side of the majority of bad quality headphones.

fyi i know of the medical information of human hearing but that doesn't give a reason for this kind of difference.

There are a lot of mis-leading information about Hi-Res or Upsampling music.

One of the benefits of Hi-Res or Upsampled music (e.g. 384k/32bit, or even 768/32) is to better reconstruct audio signal (yes frequency under 22kHz).

Sampling theory said 44kHz sampling is good enough to reproduce audio signal up to 22kHz. However, that is under the ideal situation, e.g. using a perfect filter (not such thing in reality) and no quantization noise (again, no such things in reality as we use 16, 24, or 32 bit for the quantization).

Many people are enjoying better reconstructed music (i.e. in the audio frequency range) with Hi-Res or Upsampling sources.

Personally I upsampled my 44kHz CD-quality files to DSD256 (sometimes, I would upsample CD to 768kHz / 32) with HQPlayer (a professional software of upsampling music). It sounds more natural and analog.

Cheers.

 

[castleofargh]

exactly ... i mean why have an average common range analog output on smth that internally outputs more but by the end of it, even if you have lets say an audeze 5-40khz headphones you stiill will only get the 20-20!!! it just doesn't really make sense to me, or there is smth that im not aware of.

That's almost certainly not what's happening. The mention of 20Hz-20kHz was most likely as reference for some other measurement, as @Roseval suggested. Like to say how much frequency response deviation there is over that particular range of frequency. It doesn't make much sense to just randomly have 20Hz-20kHz mentioned for DACs or even DAC amps without anything else to say. There is probably something more in the specs you read.


But it is true that there is no direct or necessary relation between the maximum sample rate and the maximum frequency your system will output. To take the most extreme example of that, DSD has a very high sample rate, but because of noise shaping, a lot of garbage is moved into the ultrasonic range and needs to be filtered out. So there is no sane design that would try to have DSD extend all the way to the sample rate/2 frequency. It's more likely to have a low pass filter somewhere, say around 40kHz or something.
I have a little old sony DAP that filters everything after 30kHz, it has the golden hires logo and will play hires files. Those things don't have to be related, and rarely are. Same thing with bit depth. There is nothing you're going to use that actually has 24(let alone 32)bit of equivalent resolution at the output. But you sure can play 24bit files on just about all devices nowadays.
And of course it's the same thing for the headphone and the frequency range some will give you. What does it mean? It certainly doesn't mean flat over that range, as no headphone is flat anything to begin with. So how does a brand arrive to such values? What is the measurement standard they use? Is it the same used by some other brand? In general, my answer is that I don't know. They just don't readily give you that kind of information. It's more often than not, a feel good spec and only like maybe 3 or 4 brands actively put that not so defined frequency range in their specs.

Fidelity is sadly something that rarely follows the marketing concepts spammed to impress us.

 

[Koalacola]

That's almost certainly not what's happening. The mention of 20Hz-20kHz was most likely as reference for some other measurement, as @Roseval suggested. Like to say how much frequency response deviation there is over that particular range of frequency. It doesn't make much sense to just randomly have 20Hz-20kHz mentioned for DACs or even DAC amps without anything else to say. There is probably something more in the specs you read.


But it is true that there is no direct or necessary relation between the maximum sample rate and the maximum frequency your system will output. To take the most extreme example of that, DSD has a very high sample rate, but because of noise shaping, a lot of garbage is moved into the ultrasonic range and needs to be filtered out. So there is no sane design that would try to have DSD extend all the way to the sample rate/2 frequency. It's more likely to have a low pass filter somewhere, say around 40kHz or something.
I have a little old sony DAP that filters everything after 30kHz, it has the golden hires logo and will play hires files. Those things don't have to be related, and rarely are. Same thing with bit depth. There is nothing you're going to use that actually has 24(let alone 32)bit of equivalent resolution at the output. But you sure can play 24bit files on just about all devices nowadays.
And of course it's the same thing for the headphone and the frequency range some will give you. What does it mean? It certainly doesn't mean flat over that range, as no headphone is flat anything to begin with. So how does a brand arrive to such values? What is the measurement standard they use? Is it the same used by some other brand? In general, my answer is that I don't know. They just don't readily give you that kind of information. It's more often than not, a feel good spec and only like maybe 3 or 4 brands actively put that not so defined frequency range in their specs.

Fidelity is sadly something that rarely follows the marketing concepts spammed to impress us.

i can give some links that feature frequency response for dac-s that dont really make sense to me
colorfly: the 20-20 that was received quite positively in reviews
https://hifigo.com/products/colorfly-cda-m1p
moondrop dawn: has insane specs that are probably quite bloated and reviews are mixed
https://moondroplab.com/en/products/dawn-3-5
and thirdly that is absolutely mind boggling to me.. hiby
https://www.hypethesonics.com/hiby-fc3-minihype/
virtually next to no manufacturer data... instead i found this "data" made by someone who is waaay in to specs and is kind of a sensory overload just to look and understand. Has a horrible app and disconnecting issues found in reviews.
And there is also a fiio ka11 that has no data regarding frequency
https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/fiio-ka11.27035/


The colorfly kinda bummed me out with the 20-20. I mean for me it makes sense that the output should have a wider range in frequency and i see smaller dacs that featured 20-40khz (though they did have compatibility flaws) but i guess as said before the 20 20 doesnt matter but the deviation
The moodrop looked great. bloated but still ppl in general found it good some not so much.
The hiby is a big question mark. Its an interesting piece but with a very small set of official specs it kinda feels like they dont want you to know anything, the features are interesting though
The fiio seems nice but its smth i havent looked too mutch in to yet cause i found it this morning on sale.

my strain of though was that if you have a good quality headphone/iem you want it to run well with the dac you buy and i've done that by comparing specs of the thing i own, with mainly the output frequency range, cause this whole 20 20 spectacle that is here and there made me believe that "if that's the output then it wont matter if the headphones have a wider response and you get what you get" will the specs the market offers. But yeah the market is hella confusing what made me open this thread.

From the list i've listed i have the chance to buy the fiio ka1 the hiby fc3 and smth called "7hz sevenhertz 71" that i've only found chinese data about XD. The colorfly is also an option but a bit on the higher end with the price so im not super keen.

So yeah im kinda lost on what to get and at this point any real input or option is welcome.
I mainly use a beyerdynamic custom studio and the dac will be mixed use between pc and phone but mainly on phone with mainly flac files that i'll copy on to its storage. Im also planning to get an in ear monitor in the next few weeks to use with the dac (not sure if this is relevant info but at this point i rather say then not, when it might have been usefull to know beforehand).

 

[castleofargh]

The first link's mention of 20Hz-20kHz with nothing else is... strange. I don't really understand what purpose that has.
The second does as we suggested, it actually gives you the frequency response deviation over a certain bandwidth. In this case -3dB over 5hz-87kHz. Sometimes you'll get 2 values for 2 different ranges. Like in this case, if they had also given the deviation between 20Hz and 20kHz, the value would have been much smaller than 3dB as the graph shows a very flat response within that frequency range.
Fiio doesn't bring it up at all, which to me is also very common.

It's really just the first one that's weird with that seemingly pointless line int he specs.

I cannot help you choosing, as I don't use dongles at all and never bothered getting properly informed about what's available. Hopefully others will, but your title might not attract the right crowd. Perhaps a different thread asking for dongle advice? I expect just about anything else to be more important for your listening experience than how high in the ultrasound a USB dongle can go, but if you think that's important to you, then of course, follow your priorities.