[vodkadebugger]

I'm looking for headphones with wide staging and strong low end, but not warm (I don't like the HD650). My budget is 500€.

I mostly listen to dark DnB, jazz, hard bop, some orchestral and play video games.

I do enjoy my HD560S but I'm really starved for something that has a wow factor with staging (which is why I'm considering AKG K712 Pro) and stronger, less "reference" low end (brain shakers, perhaps?). I do very much like analytical and cold sound that allows me to pick out the details in music.

Other cans I'm considering are: Beyerdynamic DT880 600 ohm, DT1770, DT1990, Sennheiser HD660S, Grado Hemp. What do you guys think of these choices for what I'm looking for? If they are capable of handling it, I will not shy away from using the bass boost on my iFi Zen Can, so the cans don't necessarily have to be bassy out of the box, as long as the drivers are capable.

 

[cycloverid]

You should definitely add the Sundara to your list. With EQ these things have fantastic sub bass impact for open back headphones. I've written a lot about it in this section of the forum recently, so wouldn't be hard to find. Good luck!

 

[vodkadebugger]

I'm wary of Sundara because of the shape of their pads. I remember trying HE400s and I couldn't stand them for more than half a minute. Perhaps I will reconsider if the pads are different - I really liked Brainwavz HM5 pleather pads on my AD500X - would those work with the Sundara?

 

[cycloverid]

I've never used the HE400, but on the Hifiman store it says the inner diameter of the HE400 pad is 54.5mm whereas the Sundara has 58mm inner diameter. This would make a marginal difference at best. There are a bunch of people experimenting with pad swapping, any circular pad with an outer diameter of 105mm should work. Though, I would caution you that the acoustics might be changed.

These fit my ears well, but if you have large ears I can see how that might be a problem. It would make more sense for Hifman to use an oval inner shape like Audeze does, but unfortunately they don't.

 

[Deolum]

I try to match those you listed to what you said as prefs:

DT880: not really unless you want to be wowed by flat neutrality

DT1770: would be the best of the bunch. Low end is massive and DT1770 with bass boost comes close to scull candy crushers. High end has beyer peak which makes it appear a bit cold and analytical. It's not as strong as with other beyers though.

DT1990: less low end than 1770 with more beyerpeak. Has two different pads. One makes them really neutral sounding. The other one is a bit odd. 1770 is more fun.

HD660S: no big stage, not much low end, not really for you.

Never heard Grado Hemp.

K712: only have 702 but it has wide staging, details, cold, analytical. As far as i know the 712 has more low end.

Would take 712 or 1770.

 

[vodkadebugger]

Thank you for your insight! I am honestly very intrigued by the DT1770s! I think those might be the ones I pull the trigger for. I might get the K712s down the line for that soundstage, but I want bass-monsters that retain clarity and from what I hear the 1770s are exactly that.

Considering they're closed, is their soundstage claustrophobic/intimate or is it not too "in your head"?

 

[gimmeheadroom]

The separation on the DT1770s is kinda extreme and causes that it does not sound claustrophobic. It's actually crying for crossfeed at times.

 

[cycloverid]

I'm just going to weigh in based on my experience with the DT1990. I wasn't too impressed with it. It seems like a marginal technical improvement over the 990. The new tesla technology seems to mostly make these extremely efficient headphones: 102dBSPL vs the 96dBSPL of the prior 250 ohm 770/880/990. With that in mind, I wouldn't expect a very big step up from the 770, the measurements pretty much confirm this. The DT770 is a decent headphone even now, but it's also ~$150. You could more easily power the DT1770, so this seems to appeal to people without amps or not very powerful amps in comparison.

Do some research before you buy I would say. Several of the reviewers I watch had negative opinions on the 1770 and okay-decent opinions on the 1990. But if you get them and are happy, none of that matters! These are beautifully built headphones, but don't let that be the only thing that convinces you.

In my A/B, the Sundara dominated the DT1990 in many categories. The DT1990 does a couple things better, but the Sundara bests it in many more areas. This is a headphone that costs maybe 60% as much...

 

[vodkadebugger]

It does seem like most reviewers hate on the 1770. Is it because of the treble, some also say the bass is not detailed (this is a cause for concern)? Based on Crinacle's graph tool, I tried EQing my 560S to match the peaks of the 1770 and it seemed fine to my ears (I prefer cold to warm signatures every day of the month).

I could always get both the 250 ohm 770 and the K712 (because I'm still highly intrigued by their soundstage, also I've read they EQ well). I've been doing research constantly for the past few weeks which is why I finally decided to make this thread.

This is all very difficult

 

[Deolum]

Well the thing is the 1770 are no good headphones. They are the best of the beyers because they have somewhat of a special attribute that other headphones don't offer which is the bass. And they will wow you.

The problem is that headphones that will wow you are no good headphones because when you look deeper they have many flaws. The headphones with less flaws are mostly neutral and subtle. You can't have the bass of Skullcandy crushers in a hifi headphone without downsides.

 

[cycloverid]

I personally can't go back to dynamic driver bass after switching to planars (first with the Oppo PM3 in 2015, and now with the Sundara in 2020). I do love great sub bass, and planar drivers simply dominate dynamic drivers in this area. Even the open back Sundara simply destroys my DT770 in this category (dynamic drivers get pretty distorted in the low frequencies). If you get a closed back dynamic, those will have better punch for sure though, so that's one bonus. They tend to have really boosted high bass humps as well, which I personally don't like (ymmv). Dynamics are also better for competitive FPS gaming for instance, because they have better imaging.

If the Hifiman pad comfort isn't good for you though, then it's just a nonstarter. Hifiman has easily the best cost/performance planars out there that I've tried, though there are a couple other competitors springing up lately.

 

[Deolum]

Just noticed you description sounds perfectly like TH900. They have wide staging, strong low end and are on the colder, analytical, detailed side.

 

[vodkadebugger]

Just noticed you description sounds perfectly like TH900. They have wide staging, strong low end and are on the colder, analytical, detailed side.

The only problem is they're thrice my budget

I guess I could hold out for two more months, I should have 1600 saved by that time, it seems all headphones are polarizing except maybe the HD600

 

[cycloverid]

The TH900 is very expensive. I have never tried it, but it does seem to be well revered for bass so I can't argue with that.

My recommendation would be to buy a couple of these to A/B with a good return policy so you can send one or two back that you don't like. Whenever I'm looking to upgrade, I generally buy 3 headphones with a pretty sizable budget saved up ($1500 this time) so I can personally see how everything stacks up: comfort/performance/etc. If you aren't trying them in person in a store or something, there are just so many personal variables.

 

[vodkadebugger]

I'm buying from Thomann.de and they're pretty much the top pick for pro audio purchases in Europe. They have a rock solid 30 day money back return policy, so I will have no issues return headphones if I'm extremely disappointed by them.