[diamondears]

Yeh they definitely sound rolled off to my ears which makes sense as whenever i listen to music from my bookshelf speakers they never sound like the vast majority of headphones that have neutral or emphasized treble. While not exactly the same the hp50s do sound more like a couple of room speakers than most other headphones imo.

Most existing headphones are tilted toward the treble either by emphasizing treble and/or lacking in bass. IMHO.

 

[shabta]

Pardon me, but I just couldn't let this go. I disagree. The highs are definitely not rolled off. Rolled off would mean that the treble would sound less loud compared to neutral speakers, and that is just not true with the HP50. However, just like the LCD-2.2, it has bass quantity and quality now. So on a pair of ears used to less bass quantity and quality, plus upstream gears that compensates these, the NAD would sound warm or rolled off.

I have gone through my usual test tracks, and I just couldn't hear any roll off. In fact, it sparkles when the recording has it, especially on an iPhone.

Let's also remember that this is tuned for portable gears, especially the iPhone.

P.S.: I used iPhone 6+ with Onkyo HD Player app and iFi nano iDSD as upstream gears using Minimum Phase digital filter. So definitely neutral, not warm, gears.

I think that the point that Transmaniacon is making is that the graph shows the treble roll off. It isn't something you can really debate. In addition, it is something that many of us hear when listening to the NAD, and we hear it relative to both other headphone and speaker systems (including I would argue the TOTL PSB speakers). You obviously like that sort of rolled off sound, most people who like the LCD 2 do. That is cool. Obviously Paul Barton likes the sound too. But there is no point in arguing with the graph.   

 

[diamondears]

I think that the point that Transmaniacon is making is that the graph shows the treble roll off. It isn't something you can really debate. In addition, it is something that many of us hear when listening to the NAD, and we hear it relative to both other headphone and speaker systems (including I would argue the TOTL PSB speakers). You obviously like that sort of rolled off sound, most people who like the LCD 2 do. That is cool. Obviously Paul Barton likes the sound too. But there is no point in arguing with the graph.   

No, I'm saying that the Harman curve (what you see in frequency response graphs as a right-downwards tilt) more closely represents the real thing. So there's actually no treble roll off.

As explained by Paul Barton in his interviews and and by Tyll in his articles, real music we hear should have a right-downward curve in FR graphs because treble is one-directional (towards where driver is pointed) while bass is omni-directional (around the driver). In other words, bass is "thrown" in all directions, while treble is concentrated only one direction--towards our ears in case of HPs. Because of this, as volume pot gets higher, treble increases in volume proportionately more than the bass.

So you shouldn't look at FR graph to conclude that there's treble roll off. And this is also the exact reason why most HPs are bright---they believe the FR graph should be flat. In turn, this is the reason many amps are warm--to compensate for the brightness.

You can test this in your own home if you have speakers. If you rotate your speakers and point them away from your ears, you will hear a decrease in treble but proportionately less decrease in bass (almost no change). Converse is true as well.

This is why I keep on saying I don't HEAR a treble roll off. The NAD is so realistic and good that even the LCD-2.2 don't find much head time in me. NAD is much better, and that's even accounting for the LCD being open backed and NAD being closed.

IMHO.

 

[chailee80]

I guess it comes down to your point of reference. I was listening to the noble 4 the other day which is supposed to be very neutral and i found it quite bright compared to the hp50. I then compared the focal spirit pro which is also supposed to be quite neutral and it sounded much closer to the hp50s tuning. Finally i compared the b&o h6 which people also call neutral and it was also noticeably brighter as well as having more bass. It kind of confuses me really lol.

 

[shabta]

No, I'm saying that the Harman curve (what you see in frequency response graphs as a right-downwards tilt) more closely represents the real thing. So there's actually no treble roll off.

As explained by Paul Barton in his interviews and and by Tyll in his articles, real music we hear should have a right-downward curve in FR graphs because treble is one-directional (towards where driver is pointed) while bass is omni-directional (around the driver). In other words, bass is "thrown" in all directions, while treble is concentrated only one direction--towards our ears in case of HPs. Because of this, as volume pot gets higher, treble increases in volume proportionately more than the bass.

So you shouldn't look at FR graph to conclude that there's treble roll off. And this is also the exact reason why most HPs are bright---they believe the FR graph should be flat. In turn, this is the reason many amps are warm--to compensate for the brightness.

You can test this in your own home if you have speakers. If you rotate your speakers and point them away from your ears, you will hear a decrease in treble but proportionately less decrease in bass (almost no change). Converse is true as well.

This is why I keep on saying I don't HEAR a treble roll off. The NAD is so realistic and good that even the LCD-2.2 don't find much head time in me. NAD is much better, and that's even accounting for the LCD being open backed and NAD being closed.

IMHO.

Ok go bring your HP50s to a shop that sells PSBs and go listen to the TOTL. Go listen to a set of Wilsons, I don't care which model. Listen to any of the High end Focals. Then come back and tell me that the NAD HP50 doesn't sound rolled off. It is a fantastic headphone, and it sounds slightly rolled off. Even my Proac Tablettes sound brighter.  Tyll even says that the NAD while not veiled are in that direction, and he really likes a relaxed treble sound. Sheesh. 

 

[diamondears]

Ok go bring your HP50s to a shop that sells PSBs and go listen to the TOTL. Go listen to a set of Wilsons, I don't care which model. Listen to any of the High end Focals. Then come back and tell me that the NAD HP50 doesn't sound rolled off. It is a fantastic headphone, and it sounds slightly rolled off. Even my Proac Tablettes sound brighter.  Tyll even says that the NAD while not veiled are in that direction, and he really likes a relaxed treble sound. Sheesh. 

Nope, HP50 is no way veiled nor rolled off in an iPhone 6 and 6+, even compared to the speakers you mentioned. TOTL speakers doesn't necessarily equates to neutral. In fact many of them emphasize treble to "extract more detail". And ProAc Tablette is bright.

TOTL speakers equates more to cleanliness of sound without losing details on all frequencies, big soundstage, precise imaging, while having a balanced sound.

But in any case, I don't HEAR any roll off, nor do I find details being lost using the iPhone 6/6+. On desktop gears, yes the NAD is warm.

Disagreements and debates are good. It means you're not surrounded by blind bats, dogs and horses. So you disagreeing is cool, should be perfectly fine, and it is with me.

 

[shabta]

So what you are saying is that you don't find them rolled off. But I do. Since your original comment was that they were more speaker like, I tried to name a bunch of terrific speakers that all have better treble then the NAD, including the TOTL by the very guy that designed the NAD. Now your point is that some speakers aren't neutral, which is it? I would bet dollars to doughnuts that Paul Barton thinks the treble response on his five figure set of speakers is better than the 300 dollars headphones.  I also think these NADs are terrific headphones. And I wouldn't say the NAD is warmer on an amp, just a bit fuller sounding. Actually find the treble less rolled off. YMMV. BTW the real comparison should probably be what acoustic music sounds like live vs. speaker or headphone. The treble on my HD800s (not as peaky as some others by the graph) is much more natural for chamber music or solo piano than the NAD. So thinks my music engineering friends. But that's life, we have different opinions.

 

[diamondears]

So what you are saying is that you don't find them rolled off. But I do. Since your original comment was that they were more speaker like, I tried to name a bunch of terrific speakers that all have better treble then the NAD, including the TOTL by the very guy that designed the NAD. Now your point is that some speakers aren't neutral, which is it? I would bet dollars to doughnuts that Paul Barton thinks the treble response on his five figure set of speakers is better than the 300 dollars headphones.  I also think these NADs are terrific headphones. And I wouldn't say the NAD is warmer on an amp, just a bit fuller sounding. Actually find the treble less rolled off. YMMV. BTW the real comparison should probably be what acoustic music sounds like live vs. speaker or headphone. The treble on my HD800s (not as peaky as some others by the graph) is much more natural for chamber music or solo piano than the NAD. So thinks my music engineering friends. But that's life, we have different opinions.

No, NAD's current TOTL speakers (Imagine T2) doesn't have more treble, but yeah it's treble is better. (Better treble doesn't mean more treble, and vice-versa). The Image T6 (mid-tier model) is brighter (than the T2), but it's treble is less "clean" and midrange less natural, and etc. Compared to the HP50, no way the T6, moreso the T2, has more treble.

I'll bet doughnuts Paul would think the HP50's treble is BETTER than the T2's. I think it's better. It's definitely better than the T6.

The HD-800 is indubitably bright. So that would actually say the NAD isn't rolled off but just right.

Glad you now accept different people have different opinions. But my honest opinion is that you're only finding the HP50 rolled off on the treble because you're used to HPs that are bright and not neutral.

Compared to iPhone your desktop amp makes the HP50 even with more treble? What's that gear?

 

[shabta]

I don't know what you mean by better, not more. I wouldn't say that the HD800 has more treble, it is just better, and doesn't roll off the way that HP50 does. My pair doesn't have the pronounced spike that many do. Acoustic music means that you aren't listening through a tweeter so all that room feel stuff doesn't matter the same way. I live with a steinway baby grand in my living room. I bet I know what that sounds like better than you. I had one of my sound engineer friends over to make a recording one day. We use it as a test for whether the recording tech we are using is capturing the sound we hear. Played back through the HD800s, and some of our speaker systems, it sounds really close. It doesn't sound anywhere near as right on the HP50, mostly because of the inner detail that is missing, due in part to the way the treble rolls off. 
 
Look, I know you won't back down no matter what, so at this point I will leave you to your opinion, and I will go listen to a friend who just bopped over to play the Steinway. At least we agree the headphones are really good.

 

[diamondears]

I don't know what you mean by better, not more. I wouldn't say that the HD800 has more treble, it is just better, and doesn't roll off the way that HP50 does. My pair doesn't have the pronounced spike that many do. Acoustic music means that you aren't listening through a tweeter so all that room feel stuff doesn't matter the same way. I live with a steinway baby grand in my living room. I bet I know what that sounds like better than you. I had one of my sound engineer friends over to make a recording one day. We use it as a test for whether the recording tech we are using is capturing the sound we hear. Played back through the HD800s, and some of our speaker systems, it sounds really close. It doesn't sound anywhere near as right on the HP50, mostly because of the inner detail that is missing, due in part to the way the treble rolls off. 

Look, I know you won't back down no matter what, so at this point I will leave you to your opinion, and I will go listen to a friend who just bopped over to play the Steinway. At least we agree the headphones are really good.

Haven't compared the HP50 on a live music or instrument. But if you're gonna compare, it would be a fruitless endeavor because there's no way to tell if it's the recording that tweaked the sound of your grand piano or the HP50 or HD-800. I mean, the recording could have made the sound of the piano rolled off on the treble, and the HD-800 is just compensating for it. On the HP50 it would sound rolled off, but actually it is just reproducing the actual recording accurately.

Btw, not looking to change your mind or keep mine. Just enjoying a nice discussion.

 

[FangsNTail]

So, ummm... I modded the headband using Howard Leight shooting ear muffs I got on sale from Amazon...

[ http://www.amazon.ca/Howard-Leight-R-03318-Leightning-Shooters/dp/B001DZX86O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1428187136&sr=8-1&keywords=howard+leight+L3 ]

With the $20 bonus from Amazon Visa sign-up it came down to $6.71.

Some nylon nuts/washers/bolts from Home Depot for $4.45...

[ http://www.homedepot.ca/product/6-32x1-2-flat-slot-hd-nylon-mach-screw/956490 ]

... and Krazy Glue for $1.89.  

All in all, +/- $14.

End product was a bit tight at first, but with a little straightening I got a comfy fit without losing seal.  The dreaded creaking that came with the stock headband was of course gone -- Big plus!

If the stock headband was light, it is even lighter now.  There is a small rectangular hole on the outside of the cups from where the stock headband was attached.  I filled them up with a little Shoe Goo.  I'll cover them up with stickers or sumthin' later.

Nylon fasteners at Home Depot only come in white.  I don't mind, but I might rub it with black Sharpie if I find one.

Btw, you would notice there's no connection between the right and left earcups.  I've been using a Y-cable.

I am a novice, this is my first mod ever.  I'd like to think I did a pretty decent job.  ^_^


 

 

 

 


(Actually, it is not a mod in my case.  I broke the headband and the wire inside.  So, it is more of a repair to me than a mod.  

 

[diamondears]

How did you break the internal wiring? You tried bending the stock headband?

 

[FangsNTail]

How did you break the internal wiring? You tried bending the stock headband?

Yup, when I tried bending the stock headband.  I didn't know the innards back then.  When I lost contact between the left and right cup, I sliced the leather band open and saw the wire scratched at that point.  The wire inside is super-thin, it is very vulnerable where it comes out of the inside tube of the headband arm (where I drew a blue arrow).  That is where the wire bends when you push and pull the arm for length.  I believe, however, that you can't break it with normal use.  I must have bent the headband a few times too many.

 

[Jeff Y]

  Yup, when I tried bending the stock headband.  I didn't know the innards back then.  When I lost contact between the left and right cup, I sliced the leather band open and saw the wire scratched at that point.  The wire inside is super-thin, it is very vulnerable where it comes out of the inside tube of the headband arm (where I drew a blue arrow).  That is where the wire bends when you push and pull the arm for length.  I believe, however, that you can't break it with normal use.  I must have bent the headband a few times too many.

wow, I wish I could try but I wouldn't dare...
This photo for me begs the question - If the internal wiring are that thin, is it worth it to get the Moon Audio Silver Dragon Headphone cables that I plan to get in the future?

 

[SSandDigital]

  wow, I wish I could try but I wouldn't dare...
This photo for me begs the question - If the internal wiring are that thin, is it worth it to get the Moon Audio Silver Dragon Headphone cables that I plan to get in the future?

 
Definitely not worth it.  Just do it yourself if you want to recable.  Moon Audio Silver aren't going to be any more special than if you did it yourself for 10% of the cost.