[Gu Sensei]

Just recently, I have come across a couple of posts by folks talking about trying to lift the Sennheiser HD650 veil with good equipment and NOT being successful. I am one as well. I am curious about how many others are really out there.

(I realize that my title implies (a) there is a veil and (b) perhaps it cannot be lifted. That is really not my intention; everyone has different ears, experiences, tastes, etc. One man’s veil is another’s nirvana. At the time that I was researching, which wasn’t that thoroughly I realize now, I got a strong message that ‘the veil can be lifted.’ As I said, it never happened for me. I wish I had dug a little deeper in my search and paid a little more attention to find that it does not happen for everyone. The reason for my attention-getting title? Sometimes the minority opinion needs to be shouted out just to make sure its existence is known, even if there are only a few who share it.)

So, here are my questions for owners past and present:

Part 1. Does the Veil Exist?
a. Did you find the HD650’s to have a ‘veil’?
(If yes, please answer Part 2 as well)
b. What was your rig?

Part 2. Could You Lift It?
a. Did you try to lift the veil by altering your rig?
b. Did you successfully lift it?
c. What was your rig?

************************************************
Here are my personal responses:

Part 1.
a. Yes (purchased new maybe a year and a half ago)
b. Marantz DV9500>>CEC 53Rv8/AT-HA5000>>HD650

Part 2.
a. Yes
b. No
c. Marantz SA11s1>>RSA Apache>>SAA Equinox>>HD650 (fully balanced)
*************************************************

Here is my story with more detail:

I really liked the sound signature of the HD650s trying them out in the store and decided to take them home. Very, very enjoyable but... something was there that bothered me. Without any other reference, I think I would use the term ‘fog’ rather than ‘veil,’ but I am pretty sure we are talking about the same thing. The ‘veil’ term makes me think ‘muffled,’ but that is not what I think of with the Senns. Brace yourselves for my lame attempt at an analogy: I sort of imagined watching a sports event in a big open field on a fairly foggy day. I can certainly see all the action quite well and it is still totally enjoyable, but something intangible (and challenging to describe) is there between you and it. And eventually, for me, it became distracting.

I had them at the same time as the W5000s which I just loved for their detail and transparency but killed me with brightness. The brightness was completely absent with the HD650s but so too was the sheer transparency (I think that is the descriptor I want to use here). I did like them enough and read so much about lifting the veil that I pursued the rather expensive avenue to a fully balanced rig: Marantz SA11s1 >>RSA Apache>>SAA Equinox XLR>>HD650. (Well, I didn’t go through all that trouble for just the Senns, but they were very influential in my decision making). They sounded better than before, but in no way did I feel the fog had cleared.

Now, I think that rig is pretty swanky and ought to have done the trick, but I am sure I will hear that I should try this source or that amp or these cables. But, changing amps and sources is not as quick and easy as grabbing a different necktie to better match your suit. I think it is much easier to find a more suitable pair of headphones (there are lots and lots out there and easier to sample where I am) than cycling through different amps and sources.

In my most humble opinion, I would suggest to anyone who feels their rig is reasonably good and finds the HD650s to have a bothersome veil to look first at different headphones to solve the problem. It will probably be a much less expensive option (and, as was the case with me, possibly much more successful.)

If I had never heard the W5000s or a Grado, then I can imagine being completely satisfied with the HD650s, but I have heard them and really wanted to have that aspect (transparency?) in the headphones that I use. They are awesome headphones and I completely understand why people love them so much, but they just aren’t for me.
For me, the D7000s piped through my iPod are sonically preferable to the rig I describe above that ended with the HD650s. (And that is completely leaving expense out of the equation.)

But that is just me

. Others feel differently. Maybe many many more. My intention with this thread is to help ‘clear up’ the issue a bit (pun intended) and also highlight that unveiled HD650s are not necessarily a balanced cable away.

 

[scytheavatar]

Let's just put it this way: can you say that the HD650 is as transparent as the K701/AD2000/RS1/SA5000/etc? If you can't do that, the HD650 is veiled, end of story.

 

[Xoton]

Sure...it's like wearing a good pair of sunglasses on glaring sunny day. They make you go: aaahh.

 

[kelvinz]

Part 1. Does the Veil Exist?
a. Did you find the HD650’s to have a ‘veil’?
Yes
b. What was your rig?
M-Audio USB Audiophile

Part 2.
a. Yes
b. No
c. X-Fi Elite Pro>>Beta22>>HD650

 

[plonter]

does "Veil" say that the hd 650 doesnt excell in the highs...? i got a pair of denons ah-d5000 and i want to know if the hd650 tymbrals are not picky as the denons

 

[plonter]

sorry..i take back my question. i didnt notice there a whole thread on this!

 

[Gu Sensei]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scytheavatar /img/forum/go_quote.gif Let's just put it this way: can you say that the HD650 is as transparent as the K701/AD2000/RS1/SA5000/etc? If you can't do that, the HD650 is veiled, end of story.

Hey Scytheavatar,

Sure indeed, I would answer the HD650s are veiled/less transparent than those headphones on the list, but the meat of the question is whether that answer will change depending the source/amp/cables. From my experience, it did not. What do you think?

 

[ph0rk]

No veil.
0404->HD650
0404->GLite->HD650
0404->GS-1->HD650

iPod Shuffle, first gen -> HD650

 

[kboe]

Hey Gu Sensei,
I have had my HD650s for 9 or so months and the veil bothered me as well, to the point of not listening to them for weeks at a time in favor of other cans. But what I have noticed is the more hours you put on any can, the more they relax in their flaws. My Denon 2000s, way to mudy in the bass for the first 200 hours or so, but by 300 or so they relax to bring out the mids. They arnt completely cured of boomy bass, but its much less of a problem now.

My 650s were the same way. I found them to distant and unsure, but after long burn in sessions in which I listened and in which I just let them play, the veil is nearly gone. I guess what I'm trying to say is that given enough time to mature, all cans, slowly improve upon their flaws. If any of you out there have had an amp or set of headphones with over a thousand hours on them, you know what I mean, a sound that only comes with maturity in the gear. Think fine wine, when you seal up the bottle, nothing is added or subtracted, the change occurs within.

I have used the Headroom Micro Amp and Micro DAC all along, their maturity I'm sure helps to lift the veil as well.
Kevin

 

[coredump]

Zero->LD MKIII ->HD650

Veil? Yes

I considered buying a better amp and cable but from what I've read not everyone agrees it will lift the veil.

 

[Uncle Erik]

No veil, rig in sig.

Part of the "veil" has to do with amplification. If your amp doesn't have good control over the HD-650, you hear a veil. The other part is that some people are used to or prefer headphones with forward highs. Another headphone being tipped forward is not evidence of a veil.

 

[vcoheda]

i say no veil.

i think the HD650 has a natural dark tonality to it, and i use dark in a positive sense as opposed to bright, needs very good amplification or even balanced operation to reach optimal/suitable performance, and unlike most headphones the presentation of the music is not forward leaning, which also adds to the idea of a "veil."

 

[vvanrij]

I always thought it was the veil that annoyed me, but its more that its so laid back, that its like somebody is playing music in the other room or something. Atleast I'm not part of it, which is just the reason why I like my other headphones so much.

 

[olblueyez]

Veil lifted

Solution, Equinox HP cable and some tube rolling.

Rig in Signature.

 

[vcoheda]

out of curiosity, looked back past year or so on some of my other posts regarding the HD650. pulled a few comments. interesting to reread (for me, at least).

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compared to the K701, the HD650 has an overall darker and more laid back sound. the detail is not as strong although almost as good, but it has more body, weight and texture. the bass is deeper but the sound stage is not as large. works well for all types of music, but most would probably not consider it a rock headphone. as for cons, the bass is said by some to be sloppy and there is the "veil" and the additional expense of an aftermarket cable.

both headphones sound better balanced, esp the 650. i like both but would probably keep the 650 if i had to choose.

=============

the 650 more so than other headphones in its price range requires very good amplification to really shine. why? not sure. but of all the headphones i own or have owned, they are the only ones that i didn't take a strong liking to until i heard them with higher end gear. with an average amp, they will likely sound slow and a bit compressed. with a good amp, they will start to open up. with a very good amp, they will have great texture and body, a very full sound with great bass presence/extension and good inner detail. but regardless of associated gear, the 650 will always retain its slightly laid back and somewhat dark-hued sound signature. the 650 will never be forward or punchy or have that precise (sometimes bright) clarity that some other headphones possess. if that's what you are looking for, you need to consider something else.

==========================

what you come to learn with the HD650 is that there is and never was a veil but just a laid back slightly dark hued sound signature that sounds better or worse depending on the source/amplification.

======================

the HD650 has a laid back or relaxed sonic presentation as opposed to bold, forward or upfront. the 650 has good detail but they are not crisp or brilliant - something often associated with brighter headphones. and although i would not call highs the 650s strong point, it has a deep bass response and a lovely warm, euphonic sound signature. the 650s are like being in a smokey lounge bar sitting a few rows back. the music is laid back - a bit dark. everything is heard clearly but you are not front row with the music being blared at you. instead you are kind of just there - maybe in a bit of a mellow mood - enjoying the experience.

===========================

The HD650 is a more involving phone (deep bass, great scaling). The K701 is a very polished phone (neither spectacular nor deficient in anything). For a good while, I much preferred the K701, but I have been listening to the HD650s exclusively for about a month and they sound wonderful. They are both great phones. The K701 is cheaper, especially after you upgrade the HD650 cable, and probably the better all arounder.