My Two Cents: It is NOT okay to cross signals in a cable...
May 25, 2009 at 1:34 AM Post #151 of 168
Quote:

Originally Posted by pdupiano /img/forum/go_quote.gif
[...]Take a VERY close look at the Litz 4 braid:
http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/o...s/100_0945.jpg

Notice that one pair (the black or red) is the hot + ground.
[...]
(relative to one set of wires, either black or red):
[...]



... excepted that in the picture, we don't have one set that's "two reds", and one set that's "two black"... each set is one black, one red, as the separation shows (op left of the picture).

I'm too lazy to check if this would work in this configuration too; a priori it still would due to the intrinsic symetry of the braiding. Still, it's simpler to use this geometry as one set being the red, the other set being the black.

On the other side, if I'm not wrong, the pairs of a data signal cable would be separated (and shielded as a pair), not united within such a Litz braid.
 
May 25, 2009 at 1:50 AM Post #152 of 168
Quote:

Originally Posted by Turgidson /img/forum/go_quote.gif
... excepted that in the picture, we don't have one set that's "two reds", and one set that's "two black"... each set is one black, one red, as the separation shows (op left of the picture).

I'm too lazy to check if this would work in this configuration too; a priori it still would due to the intrinsic symetry of the braiding. Still, it's simpler to use this geometry as one set being the red, the other set being the black.

On the other side, if I'm not wrong, the pairs of a data signal cable would be separated (and shielded as a pair), not united within such a Litz braid.



I'm sorry I dont understand what you are saying. Don't be confused with how I terminated the ends, this is not an actual cable, I did it to explicitly show the 4 wire litz braid. As far as im concerned, one set = 1black hot + 1black ground.
 
May 25, 2009 at 3:25 AM Post #153 of 168
Quote:

Originally Posted by pdupiano /img/forum/go_quote.gif
This is for Standard L/R/G audio When using a balanced set up, you actually have crosstalk taking place... BUT it doesn't matter because of the differential mode/operation of your equipment. In fact the 4litz braid is probably your best option for balanced set up because what you have is a constantly induced field on all 4 wires. The red wires induce crosstalk on the black wires, and the black wires induce crosstalk on the red wires, but when you look at the differential on both ends, all the noise cancels out and all you are left with is the signal itself. The real issue with balanced set ups is that the wires MUST, MUST be the same length, and you MUST keep a constant pitch with the braiding. Otherwise you will get crosstalk that will not cancel out when you look at the differences..


Standard L/R/G? Besides Headphone cables where does that exist, and where is it a standard to do that in a cable? I have DACs/HeadAmps/Pre-amps/Amps, you name it. Every effort is made to keep the channels separate, with walls and Mu shielding, you name it.

Where is there Crosstalk in a Balanced cable. There is Hot/Cold/Shield. How does that have Interchannel cross talk?

My postulation is that the reason why L/R/G is done in Headphone cables is because we are re-purposing other types of cables because the appropriate cable doesn't exist, or the proper cable is too large in diameter, or almost too large.

I think you can braid cables together just fine for a Mono cable.

Just a quick question, do you build and sell braided cable Jobs?
.
 
May 25, 2009 at 6:55 AM Post #154 of 168
Sorry when I said Standard L/R/G I meant SE (whatever gets terminated into a TRS connector). Its certainly not the standard (if I were to judge most pro audio equipment, the standard would be xlr connectors -I assume balanced config).

Channels are kept separate in all audio equipment because cross talk is even worse in the internal connection of components. Everything I mentioned in my previous post results in cancelling or reducing induced effects (cross talk) but when you're dealing with signals in the process, nothing cancels out so you have to keep them separate, you're absolutely right about that. But after wards when your transmitting the signal, you can use differential transfer (like telephone lines, data lines) to reduce cross talk and noise, by using twisted cable pairs). And I think this is what we're discussing in this thread. If I'm wrong about what topic I'm discussing then know that all the info I've written down is for headphone cables not for interconnects and or internal construction of amps/dacs etc...

As for balanced cables, I was referring to balanced cables constructed from the quad litz braid (obv no shield, just hot/cold pins with a floating pin left over). In this case, there is no cross talk from using a 4 litz braid because once again all the noise gets canceled out due to the differental mode of operation. The difference between balanced and SE (or whatever you want to refer it to) is that the means of transferring the audio signal in a balanced set up results in the cleanest possible signal, its like your headphones are connected right to the output of your amp and the wire doesn't exist(a bit of an exaggeration but I'm just trying to say balanced is about as clean as you can get while having a long cable). SE on the other hand reduces noise through the twisted cable method (at the very last when dealing with the litz 4 braid). This uses a form of differential transfer but it is not as good as a balanced set up. A balanced set up inherently uses differential means of transferring the signal so at the end so you get just the signal. SE (with twisted pairs) is just a method to try and reduce the noise/crosstalk created from long transfers.

I think that the previous solution somewhere near the middle of this thread (p5?) someone used a twisted pair for the r+g and a second twisted pair for the l+g. All I'm saying is that you get the same result when you do a quad litz braid (see the sample braid in my previous post). The difference is that you're sandwiching another pair of cables in between. But because of the geometry, the magnetic fields cancel each other out or at the very least they are greatly reduced.

Braiding cables for mono cable is fine, my point is a dual channel is fine aswell. In fact I would go so far as to say, that if it were possible to create a geometric design similar to the litz quad braid for multiple channels (greater than 2) then I would go so far as to say that even more channels would be fine. But to be honest, I don't think its possible because other braiding techniques don't utilize a twisted pair geometry in directly opposed axis like the quad litz braid.

No, no braided... too much work, I learned the hard way. You guys ever try flat braiding with jena labs wire it looks gorgeous but...pita I've recabled my headphones for the sake of doing it myself. I've come to learn why so many companies charge high prices for their services. Grant it the cost of material may not be that high, but the amount of time and effort required to recable a pair of headphones adds 2+ hours to any job. I'll be doing a recable on my akg701's and I'm still undecided what to do with them, I think I'll just stick with a quad litz vampire wire braid.

On a side note, if you're interested in making a cable that is left/right channel separate, shielded etc... I think I know of a way to do it. But I think it would more than double the weight of a cable, double its thickness and well... basically turn it into an interconnect rather than a headphone cable.

Final points I want to emphasize:
1) I still question the source of OP's information (particularly that website) If someone can point me to what waxing does (I assumed it was always to prevent oxidation, Dr. Xin used it in one of his tutorials and I figured that was the prupose) and what "low level detail resolution" means then I'll certainly correct/retract any of my comments regarding that site and the information available from the site. Furthermore, the gold issue.

2) As you mention Les, we are making compromises... its the engineering principle. So long as we don't all live near a military base or a radio station, we don't all have to run balanced set ups in shielded bunkers to reduce noise. And as far as I'm concerned, the amount of cross talk you find in a headphone cable is drastically minimized by using twisted pairs and quad braiding. And yes I could go insane using shielded cables for left, right and end up with a garden hose for cables, but its just not feasable. So I make the compromise and accept some noise in my system. Or if you want both a thin cable and absolutely no noise, I would drop an extra 2 grand to get a balanced source, balanced amp, and recable all my headphones to a balanced set up. In terms of RCA connectors though where the signal is still being "processed" by your system, I would err on the side of separate channels, plus I really can't imagine interwoven interconnects, its just...well .. I dunno I find no benefit in having them versus separated lines. As far as I know the cost of building an interwoven 2 channel interconnect might be higher or at least take more time to construct.

3). with the exception of high end dennons, I think every cable I've cut into has some form of arrangement where the signal wires are encased in a metal shield but not from one another.
 
May 25, 2009 at 3:28 PM Post #155 of 168
Quote:

Originally Posted by pdupiano /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Sorry when I said Standard L/R/G I meant SE (whatever gets terminated into a TRS connector). Its certainly not the standard (if I were to judge most pro audio equipment, the standard would be xlr connectors -I assume balanced config).

Channels are kept separate in all audio equipment because cross talk is even worse in the internal connection of components. Everything I mentioned in my previous post results in cancelling or reducing induced effects (cross talk) but when you're dealing with signals in the process, nothing cancels out so you have to keep them separate, you're absolutely right about that. But after wards when your transmitting the signal, you can use differential transfer (like telephone lines, data lines) to reduce cross talk and noise, by using twisted cable pairs). And I think this is what we're discussing in this thread. If I'm wrong about what topic I'm discussing then know that all the info I've written down is for headphone cables not for interconnects and or internal construction of amps/dacs etc...

As for balanced cables, I was referring to balanced cables constructed from the quad litz braid (obv no shield, just hot/cold pins with a floating pin left over). In this case, there is no cross talk from using a 4 litz braid because once again all the noise gets canceled out due to the differental mode of operation. The difference between balanced and SE (or whatever you want to refer it to) is that the means of transferring the audio signal in a balanced set up results in the cleanest possible signal, its like your headphones are connected right to the output of your amp and the wire doesn't exist(a bit of an exaggeration but I'm just trying to say balanced is about as clean as you can get while having a long cable). SE on the other hand reduces noise through the twisted cable method (at the very last when dealing with the litz 4 braid). This uses a form of differential transfer but it is not as good as a balanced set up. A balanced set up inherently uses differential means of transferring the signal so at the end so you get just the signal. SE (with twisted pairs) is just a method to try and reduce the noise/crosstalk created from long transfers.

I think that the previous solution somewhere near the middle of this thread (p5?) someone used a twisted pair for the r+g and a second twisted pair for the l+g. All I'm saying is that you get the same result when you do a quad litz braid (see the sample braid in my previous post). The difference is that you're sandwiching another pair of cables in between. But because of the geometry, the magnetic fields cancel each other out or at the very least they are greatly reduced.

Braiding cables for mono cable is fine, my point is a dual channel is fine aswell. In fact I would go so far as to say, that if it were possible to create a geometric design similar to the litz quad braid for multiple channels (greater than 2) then I would go so far as to say that even more channels would be fine. But to be honest, I don't think its possible because other braiding techniques don't utilize a twisted pair geometry in directly opposed axis like the quad litz braid.

No, no braided... too much work, I learned the hard way. You guys ever try flat braiding with jena labs wire it looks gorgeous but...pita I've recabled my headphones for the sake of doing it myself. I've come to learn why so many companies charge high prices for their services. Grant it the cost of material may not be that high, but the amount of time and effort required to recable a pair of headphones adds 2+ hours to any job. I'll be doing a recable on my akg701's and I'm still undecided what to do with them, I think I'll just stick with a quad litz vampire wire braid.

On a side note, if you're interested in making a cable that is left/right channel separate, shielded etc... I think I know of a way to do it. But I think it would more than double the weight of a cable, double its thickness and well... basically turn it into an interconnect rather than a headphone cable.

Final points I want to emphasize:
1) I still question the source of OP's information (particularly that website) If someone can point me to what waxing does (I assumed it was always to prevent oxidation, Dr. Xin used it in one of his tutorials and I figured that was the prupose) and what "low level detail resolution" means then I'll certainly correct/retract any of my comments regarding that site and the information available from the site. Furthermore, the gold issue.

2) As you mention Les, we are making compromises... its the engineering principle. So long as we don't all live near a military base or a radio station, we don't all have to run balanced set ups in shielded bunkers to reduce noise. And as far as I'm concerned, the amount of cross talk you find in a headphone cable is drastically minimized by using twisted pairs and quad braiding. And yes I could go insane using shielded cables for left, right and end up with a garden hose for cables, but its just not feasable. So I make the compromise and accept some noise in my system. Or if you want both a thin cable and absolutely no noise, I would drop an extra 2 grand to get a balanced source, balanced amp, and recable all my headphones to a balanced set up. In terms of RCA connectors though where the signal is still being "processed" by your system, I would err on the side of separate channels, plus I really can't imagine interwoven interconnects, its just...well .. I dunno I find no benefit in having them versus separated lines. As far as I know the cost of building an interwoven 2 channel interconnect might be higher or at least take more time to construct.

3). with the exception of high end dennons, I think every cable I've cut into has some form of arrangement where the signal wires are encased in a metal shield but not from one another.



We're most likely ultimately on the same page with an exception or two. The purpose of a lot of Head-Fi "stuff" is to get that last bit of resolution, blackness, detail, etc. Crosstalk is an issue with intermingling channels. I've talked to Mogami and Canare on the phone at length about their cables. The Star Quads are mono cables, PERIOD. These companies make Dual Quads for Stereo. There's good reasons why they do things the way they do.

We make headphone cables out of the "Crap" available to us. It is re-purposing of Mono cables and this braid deal. It is, in my opinion, just 'settling" for what's there. If one of these companies truly wanted to "create" a proper cable they would keep all these things in mind and do a cutome Headphone cable, basically a well constructed and purpose built "Stereo" cable.

This is how I arrived at the Dual Star Quad. It's only issue is that it is the "Monster Cable" of headphones. Seems to me that if anybody thinks a Star Quad is a Good idea, a Dual Star Quad is a Perfect Idea.

Also of note, the Dual Star quads and all Snake cables are rated in their attenuation of Crosstalk, with Specs and Graphs. So the Crosstalk is there even in separated, shielded Star Quads.

These facts are really indisputable, I fail to understand the continued issues.

If we could get a "Mini" dual Star Quad we would have the Perfect cable IMHO.

.
 
May 25, 2009 at 5:05 PM Post #156 of 168
I certainly can't debate that. Thats why I didn't touch it. All I'm trying to say is that if you braid wire properly in a symmetric fashion (such as the quad round litz braid) you will cut down the cross talk. You know what I'll even say that if you build a wire with perfect geometry, I say it eliminates ALL cross talk. As for other noises, well thats just something that you have to deal with because you're using an unshielded headphone cable. the point is the OP of this tread, and I assume you (since I think you mentioned he can't post here anymore) are arguing against these diy /mot cables from reputable and not so reputable headfiers/cablebuilders/professionals etc.. etc.. because they induce cross talk. All I'm saying is, cables built similar to those from lawton audio which look like VERY VERY tight and geometrically perfect quad round braids will no induce cross talk in the channels. My reasoning for this is the canceling of all induced electromagnetic fields. The only reason why I know that is because geometry cuts down on calculations you have to perform... and I never liked having to do 5 hours worth of homework when I did EMF analysis. This is one of the short cuts. It's not an approximation either... its like newton forces if I push in one direction and you push in the other they cancel out.

So as far as I'm concerned, there's no cross talk in quad litz round braid if braided in a perfectly tight gemetrical way (its not that hard if you use a machine, human hand braiding could be questionable unless you braid it VERY tightly or have some guide).

But once again, one channel starquads etc.. yeah I definitely agree those should be one channel. BTW I checked out some of ALO's braiding and its a bit tougher to do the math on those it does a wierd cross over that unless I can duplicate and have in front of me, I might not be able to say if the fields cancel or not. my initial instinct is that they don't cancel and will induce some cross talk, but I can't be certain since I haven't been able to copy a braid like theirs.

And I guess I have to end it this way.

Those are my 2 cents.
 
May 25, 2009 at 5:23 PM Post #157 of 168
I've got some lengths of Mogami Quad (Regular and Mini) lying around, I might whip up a stereo cable with them and do an RMAA test, checking if there's anything within the audible range that's different to other cables.

Of course I believe companies like Mogami and Canare know what they're doing, and that there's a good cause for them to specify those cables for mono-use.
 
May 25, 2009 at 5:43 PM Post #158 of 168
Quote:

Originally Posted by dfkt /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I've got some lengths of Mogami Quad (Regular and Mini) lying around, I might whip up a stereo cable with them and do an RMAA test, checking if there's anything within the audible range that's different to other cables.

Of course I believe companies like Mogami and Canare know what they're doing, and that there's a good cause for them to specify those cables for mono-use.



That would be interesting, but may or may not prove/disprove anything. There may be a difference that may be lost on the resolution of the test equipment. I think if there was a way to measure crosstalk in the Braids and what you are talking about, I just have to feel it would be revealing. Noise floors would be interesting as well.

.
 
May 25, 2009 at 6:14 PM Post #159 of 168
Quote:

Originally Posted by pdupiano /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I'm sorry I dont understand what you are saying. Don't be confused with how I terminated the ends, this is not an actual cable, I did it to explicitly show the 4 wire litz braid. As far as im concerned, one set = 1black hot + 1black ground.


What I wanted to say is that the way you terminated the end is very confusing, vs. the demonstration: it tended to suggest that one pair = 1 red + 1 black, in which case your reasoning wouldn't work anymore. Ending the wire with a pair of red and a pair of black would have clearly lifted the confusion.
wink.gif



As for signal transmission: the case where the "ground" is shared between both components and signal only runs through the signal cable, and the case where the "ground" line is also used to transmit real current seem different to me.
From a headphone's view, the driver's "ground" is actually floating (and the two drivers shouldn't even share the same ground)... If I'd base calculations on the current I, there's as much going through the signal wire, than from the return "ground" wire. That's why dual-mode rejection is working, and it's good to twist the cables.
On the contrary, if the ground had been "shared" by the two components, then the signal itself is transferred by the "hot" cable alone... dual-mode rejection doesn't work, and a coaxial cable would have been better.

Thus, it'd seem to me that single-ended isn't such a bad solution for headphones... the gains of balanced headphones would be more on the dual amplification (push-pull), allowing to stay lower in the requirements on each amp section for the same output power. The electric field itself stays quite low for headphones, the gain of having a balanced ( +/- V, -/+ V) vs. the single ended ( +/- 2 V, 0) doesn't seem that huge electrically speaking... but as I'm no electrical engineer, I'd prefer someone else to confirm (or not
biggrin.gif
).
 
May 26, 2009 at 1:09 AM Post #160 of 168
Quote:

Originally Posted by Turgidson /img/forum/go_quote.gif
... the gains of balanced headphones would be more on the dual amplification (push-pull), allowing to stay lower in the requirements on each amp section for the same output power. The electric field itself stays quite low for headphones, the gain of having a balanced ( +/- V, -/+ V) vs. the single ended ( +/- 2 V, 0) doesn't seem that huge electrically speaking... but as I'm no electrical engineer, I'd prefer someone else to confirm (or not
biggrin.gif
).



The main conclusion I can draw from what I've read about balanced cables is their true differential trasmission of a signal. By carrying and allowing the noise to propagate through both signals then only "seeing" the difference between the two, you end up with just the audio signal. But your absolutely right about your last statement... which is one of the main reasons why I was hesitant to even post on this thread... for headphonecables, the issue isn't that "big." Then again as Les pointed out, headfiers are looking for that 1 - 2% improvement in their audio gear.
 
May 26, 2009 at 2:49 AM Post #161 of 168
Quote:

Originally Posted by pdupiano /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The main conclusion I can draw from what I've read about balanced cables is their true differential trasmission of a signal. By carrying and allowing the noise to propagate through both signals then only "seeing" the difference between the two, you end up with just the audio signal. But your absolutely right about your last statement... which is one of the main reasons why I was hesitant to even post on this thread... for headphonecables, the issue isn't that "big." Then again as Les pointed out, headfiers are looking for that 1 - 2% improvement in their audio gear.


Hey,
I think the last bit is what can make something sound truly magical. I don't know how to quantify SQ in %. I see people do it with DACs or amps or whatever and say this DAC is 80% of such and such. hat just doesn't work for me.

However, that last 1-2% if you like or the lack of Crosstalk or EMI/RFI can cause you to notise that focus and clarity we all are looking for. Where in complex Musical passages you hear much more detail, layering and separaion. Maybe you get the combination that makes an unintelligible phrase in a voice finally resolve. I have a Cyndi lauper tune I use for that. Or complex percussion sequences where the bits being banged now come alive. that blcok of wood sounds different on each strike, instead of the same like a synthesizer did it. You now have the feel of a Human swinging wood, and it's different with each swing of the stick. That's what we call musical, alive, engaging, Magical!

I think it is hard to measure this, if not impossible. I don't think you can always pcik it up in Freq graphs/responces, that's for sure. I think this is an overriding reason amongst others for "Fully" Balanced and Differential gear.

The ideal gear, to me, is fully balanced. The Headphone Cable wold be two totally separated pieces/runs of Cardas 4x24. These would be balanced and going into the Headamp on opposite sides of the Chassis.

Obviously, that is a bit unwieldy. So from there, you pick your compromises. I don't want to compromise much since I've sunk as much as I have in Electrics and Canz. So this cable is where I have landed so far. L-4E3-2P I am in the process of terminating it SE first and then I'll eventually do everything balanced. The SE test is that I think it will be better for SE also.

.
 
May 26, 2009 at 3:04 PM Post #162 of 168
Quote:

Originally Posted by dfkt /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I've got some lengths of Mogami Quad (Regular and Mini) lying around, I might whip up a stereo cable with them and do an RMAA test, checking if there's anything within the audible range that's different to other cables.


Please do so, I think it would be important, I have done my own tests so am always interested to hear the results of similar empirical tests. Can I ask how you assess crosstalk with the RMAA thingy, I may try this myself.

My own tests have failed to show notable measurable differences between many different cable designs including braided silver strands, solid copper, copper strands, silver plated copper and $0.77c stock cables and I was toyng with the idea of getting some of the OP's cables for testing in the future. The only thig I did find was a bit more noise on the stock cables and also on the Silver ones as well (whch are braided) , not audible but interesting.

cheers

Nick
 
May 26, 2009 at 3:21 PM Post #163 of 168
Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Can I ask how you assess crosstalk with the RMAA thingy, I may try this myself.


I would test the cables in a loopback configuration on the input/output of my Echo AudioFire soundcard. The card measures very well on its own, here's a loopback with some bog standard stock cables (crosstalk at -108dB): RightMark Audio Analyzer test : [MME] Analog out 3-4 (AudioFire 8)
 
May 28, 2009 at 3:30 AM Post #164 of 168
Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Please do so, I think it would be important, I have done my own tests so am always interested to hear the results of similar empirical tests. Can I ask how you assess crosstalk with the RMAA thingy, I may try this myself.

My own tests have failed to show notable measurable differences between many different cable designs including braided silver strands, solid copper, copper strands, silver plated copper and $0.77c stock cables and I was toyng with the idea of getting some of the OP's cables for testing in the future. The only thig I did find was a bit more noise on the stock cables and also on the Silver ones as well (whch are braided) , not audible but interesting.

cheers

Nick



Good stuff to know. Also, I'm wondering if shielding, particularly wires having too much shielding, is playing a negative effect on sound (veiled sounding?)
 
Jun 27, 2009 at 6:59 AM Post #165 of 168
Hello,
Chnage of Plan. Here's my Balanced Canare "DUAL" Star Quad set of Custom Grados. It's being drive like this

HT Omega Claro Halo COAX BNC out >> Audio-GD REF 1 DAC >> CAST Interconnect >> Audio-DG Phoenix Headamp >> Balanced Out.

After the SC, everything is Fully Balanced. The sound on this CAN I'm showing here is outrageous! I would implore some of you guys to try this cable out.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/pos...ml#post5796820
 

 
 

 
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