[r3cc0s]

some people are just that naive, I know

I understand the principle of the whole di-electric break in. However I have yet to "actuality" hear differences in cables.
I have heard a broken in demo Rega Mira vs. out of Box new and there was a significant difference, a better difference, with the broken in Amp.

With cables, I can recall putting my set backwards by accident (meaning the arrow was pointing towards the source) and I could not tell the difference.

 

[ldj325]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael415 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Please speak for yourself and not as a psychologist, its embarrassing to the rest of us that actually have our doctorate level degrees. I also find it very disconcerting your entire slant of throwing your degree in as if it carries some credibility (argument from authority) which it does not regarding placebo unless you have been published on the topic. Even more disconcerting would be your total dismissal of objective and logical thinking. I HOPE with your patients (if you are actually a therapist) you don't diagnose in the same irresponsible way (or is the DSM/ICD a bit too measurefreakish for you). I am writing harshly not because I have an investment in cables making a difference or not, to be honest I could care less. What I do care about is someone trying to speak from a position of authority where none exists, or a superior view because somehow they magically know by tacking on their degree. If you are going to try and play the professional card your going to need to act like one. It is ironic you find it rude if someone says your imagining differences, but you go on a diatribe on anyone who doesn't have the same view as yourself.

Wow, for a "real psychologist" you sure seemed to me to assume a lot about the other poster. You might want to look at what you so indignantly wrote and see how it applies to yourself.

From my point of view, you seemed to bandy about and abuse the degree much more than the original poster.

 

[thejoneser]

I bet if money were no object, most non-believers would be buying top-of-the-line cables at $2500/meter and singing a different tune.

Have you ever seen any exhibitor at CES showcasing a high-end audio system without using top-of-the-line cables from one manufacturer or another?

Can you imagine walking into the Mark Levinson room, or Krell, or Balanced Audio Technology and seeing some DIY ICs and speakerwire hooked-up?

That would be hilarious!

 

[meat01]

Quote:

Originally Posted by thejoneser /img/forum/go_quote.gif I bet if money were no object, most non-believers would be buying top-of-the-line cables at $2500/meter and singing a different tune. Have you ever seen any exhibitor at CES showcasing a high-end audio system without using top-of-the-line cables from one manufacturer or another? Can you imagine walking into the Mark Levinson room, or Krell, or Balanced Audio Technology and seeing some DIY ICs and speakerwire hooked-up? That would be hilarious!

See that is the problem. A lot of the believers are concerned with the aesthetics, rather than the sound. There are a lot of people on this forum that have the money for expensive cables, but would prefer to buy BJCs and invest in items which truly make a difference in sound quality.

 

[gmoffatt]

If you can't hear it with your ears, try it with your eyes -- I recently witnessed two identical LCT TVs hooked up to the same source via analog cables -- one the cheapy small-gauge wire that comes with the TV, and the other a "monster cable" -- there was a significant difference in picture quality.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by r3cc0s /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is true, if proven via science, everyone would easily go out and purchase the ideal cable... or if proven otherwise, no one would ever purchase cables. Now the fact is, there is science. This can be measured for things such as the resistance and qualities of metals, their tolerance to oxidation and gauge, which have direct implication to the degradation of the signal. Likewise what goes into the design of the braid or ribbon, filtering and shielding as RF is a KNOWN phenomenon.

Is it true that everybody hears the same?!

Science didn't proof that, therefor no cable can sound the same either.

I experimented with cables and i found differences in core material, insulation and especially plugs. The best plugs make a huge difference in sound quality.

 

[Know Talent]

Quote:

Originally Posted by thejoneser /img/forum/go_quote.gif I bet if money were no object, most non-believers would be buying top-of-the-line cables at $2500/meter and singing a different tune. Have you ever seen any exhibitor at CES showcasing a high-end audio system without using top-of-the-line cables from one manufacturer or another? Can you imagine walking into the Mark Levinson room, or Krell, or Balanced Audio Technology and seeing some DIY ICs and speakerwire hooked-up? That would be hilarious!

and why do you think you see all the megabuck cables on display at the shows?

Maybe it's because cables have some of the highest profit margins and bring constant cash flow thru slowly bleeding fashion conscious blissfully ignorant trendies with deep pockets?

 

[fordgtlover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif Is it true that everybody hears the same?! Science didn't proof that, therefor no cable can sound the same either. I experimented with cables and i found differences in core material, insulation and especially plugs. The best plugs make a huge difference in sound quality.

Aren't RCAs considered to be fairly poor connectors? As I understand it even the cheapest BNC connectors are better than RCA - perhaps any RCA regardless of quality.

 

[bigshot]

BNCs just can't be yanked out like RCAs can. If you call that "a better connector" OK, but that doesn't mean one sounds different than the other if they are both properly connected.

See ya
Steve

 

[jvgig]

Firstly, I have never had the experience to compare super high end ($$$$$$) cables to more modest ($$$) cables; however, I do find it interesting on how the opinions here on a music focused forum vary so drastically from home theater forums (avs). I can assure you that people in the high end home theater realm are outspending almost everyone in the high end stereo realm by quite a lot (quite possibly hundreds of thousands more). Over there, even in the high end areas, it is largely agreed upon that speaker wire has such a low impact on sound quality, that even many high end installers (those installing half million dollar plus setups) argue that your standard cables from monoprice (or bluejeanscable, if you want to be fancy) costing a few cents to a few dollars a foot are just as good as those from exotic retailers costing hundreds if not thousands per foot.

Why is this? If you are spending $500,000+ on a sound system in an acoustically treated and designed room with speakers costing tens of thousands each, each with its own monoblock high performance amp hooked up to the best sound processor money can buy, why is it widely believed that you can use $1/foot cabling without any noticable difference when in the stereo audio realm, where often your wire runs are only a few feet, is it widely believed that the exotic wires often provide some sort of audible difference?

[disclaimer] I am not seeking to bash any opinions as I have none, but would just like a comparison between the two a/v disciplines in regards to cabling.

Some commonly held beliefs at AVSforum http://www.audioholics.com/education...-you-snake-oil
http://sound.westhost.com/cables.htm
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ighlight=cable

 

[Gaara]

Quote:

Originally Posted by r3cc0s /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is true, if proven via science, everyone would easily go out and purchase the ideal cable... or if proven otherwise, no one would ever purchase cables.

No because people would still be susceptible to placebo affect. For example a good analog audio cable is low capacitance, well shielded, with a high purity of copper. How many people on here check the specs before buying a cable? Even though the science is there people don't care, like bottled water where people pay more for name brands even though the products could be identical to others. I have always bought my cables based on science and always ended up happy. Tried higher end cables a few times (funny enough with a modded Jolida JD-100) and never heard differences.

For reference I use Belden 89259 for analog audio, Belden 1694A/1695A and Canare L-5CFB for digital coax, and Belden 7787A and Canare L-5CFB for component video.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmoffatt /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you can't hear it with your ears, try it with your eyes -- I recently witnessed two identical LCT TVs hooked up to the same source via analog cables -- one the cheapy small-gauge wire that comes with the TV, and the other a "monster cable" -- there was a significant difference in picture quality.

This one makes me laugh. I was in sales for 4 years and we used to play this trick all the time on customers. You would take two of the same TV and hook them up side by side with identical sources. One you would have a $100+ cable and the other regular in the box cables. You would then tweak the TV with the pricey cable to look better. We would actually go through the service menu so if a customer looked at the settings such as brightness/contrast/color, etc they would look identical.

This would convince even the most penny pinching consumer to spend the extra money on cables. Since we made 10% on cables if you were good at upselling you could make more on the cables then the TV. I still see this trick used today in higher end stores, mass market stores don't know about the service menu...they just adjust the normal settings.

 

[jvgig]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaara /img/forum/go_quote.gif We would actually go through the service menu so if a customer looked at the settings such as brightness/contrast/color, etc they would look identical.

Very clever, but any wise display shopper should always ask to see the service menu when comparing settings. However, the uneducated mass market consumer will get screwed over time and time again over such simple things to those of us who are educated...

During my last display shopping experience, I caught the salesmen on that as well as a few other common sales pitches and he gave me a few hundred off for the "mistakes".

 

[Michael415]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaara /img/forum/go_quote.gif No because people would still be susceptible to placebo affect. For example a good analog audio cable is low capacitance, well shielded, with a high purity of copper. How many people on here check the specs before buying a cable? Even though the science is there people don't care, like bottled water where people pay more for name brands even though the products could be identical to others. I have always bought my cables based on science and always ended up happy. Tried higher end cables a few times (funny enough with a modded Jolida JD-100) and never heard differences. For reference I use Belden 89259 for analog audio, Belden 1694A/1695A and Canare L-5CFB for digital coax, and Belden 7787A and Canare L-5CFB for component video. This one makes me laugh. I was in sales for 4 years and we used to play this trick all the time on customers. You would take two of the same TV and hook them up side by side with identical sources. One you would have a $100+ cable and the other regular in the box cables. You would then tweak the TV with the pricey cable to look better. We would actually go through the service menu so if a customer looked at the settings such as brightness/contrast/color, etc they would look identical.

Not to threadjack but how does one check on this? I am in the market for a new tv in about a month and was looking at the Pioneer 5020 or the Sony 46" BRAVIA XBR5 and obviously want to make sure I get the best to my eyes with a accurate evaluation.

 

[jvgig]

just ask to see the settings and if you feel they should be adjusted, ask them to do so. If they refuse, walk..no, run out the door and head to the other electronics dealer down the street. Remember, in many big box stores, the signal is split so many times that it is almost pointless to compare image quality. Go to a higher end retailer and compare image, then shop around for price.

Back on the original topic. Does anyone know why cable opinions vary so much between disciplines.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by thejoneser /img/forum/go_quote.gif I bet if money were no object, most non-believers would be buying top-of-the-line cables at $2500/meter and singing a different tune. Have you ever seen any exhibitor at CES showcasing a high-end audio system without using top-of-the-line cables from one manufacturer or another? Can you imagine walking into the Mark Levinson room, or Krell, or Balanced Audio Technology and seeing some DIY ICs and speakerwire hooked-up? That would be hilarious!

Money isn't a problem for some of us.

However, I perform due diligence before making investments and purchases. I like to know the rental history of a property before I buy it. I research the rents and occupancy in similar units, taxes, utilities, crime rates, and several other items before I run the numbers to see if it makes sense.

Have you considered performing due diligence on cables?

Let's see. Even in the $2,500 or higher cables, there's maybe $10 or $20 in raw materials. Silver closed at $15.33 today, so even if you had $100 worth in the cable (unlikely) you'd still have to account for another $2,400. Manufacturing can't be that expensive; labor for a $40 Blue Jeans must be comparable. But to be unreasonable, say that labor is $50. And let's put another $50 on for a very, very special dielectric. Then add $100 for ultra-premium plugs. Even with exaggerated actual costs of $300, that leaves another $2,200 in what could only be margin.

How do you justify that?

The other side of the coin is performance. According to cable believers, there is no possible way to measure performance, or any difference whatsoever, with electronic test equipment. Further, it is claimed that there is no reliable way to conduct listening tests.

So, at least a $2,000 margin for something that cannot, in any way, be tested. According to the believers and manufacturers. And distributors and marketers and wholesalers.