[r3cc0s]

Cables should deliver electrical current as "transparently" as possible.
The least a cable has an affect on the signal, is ideally the best cable

Factors include mostly design, materials, gauge, shielding and termination.

A proper cable should not have any affect the signal that is delivered, however we all know that it is a factor and that cables in fact do degrade the signal leaving the source, or leaving from the output stage of the amp to your speakers/headphones.

Now, we can debate till we're blue in the fact that one sounds better to another, and what materials, design etc.. is superior to another

This can be said for all cables from power to speaker, to even internal wiring for crossovers used within a set of speakers.

This is my take:

Try before you buy and listen for qualities that "you" yourself enjoy...

As subjective as cables are, it's even harder to distinguish quality than even with beer or wine

It's more like trying to "tell" the differences between bottled water.

They all hydrate you in the same manner
They all taste very similar
For some, there really is no difference, they fulfill the same purpose
For some, they prefer one to another without being able to make anything outside of a qualitative opinion
For some with a well trained pallet, can tell you that the bottle of Evian for instance contains a certain mineral they can't taste with Fiji... Making their decisions less ambiguous than for lets say us.

I've learned what my system can do with different cables and believe me, cables do different things for different systems.
For example: Coaxial copper cables have an interesting "hump" at the 6K range, and it is then up to the designer of the cables to somehow neutralize them.
How they do that, often alters the signal in manners which can be pleasant in some systems which might accommodate for just that, or might sound awful for maybe all the same reasons.


My CDP which is a Jolida JD100A, happens to have 2 sets of .6 out RCAs and I choose to run a set of:
Decware Silver ICs
and a set of
Moray James cables

Why? Because with a flick of a switch on my amp, I can go from analytical detailed gripping sound to a more lucid relaxed fluid sound on the fly

Now, do I have incredibly well trained ears? No.. but I can tell you that the cables are substantially different enough, but both sound well enough to be in my system.

 

[dura]

Brave threat; soon you'll have people here telling you that you are imagining things without them ever hearing your gear. Which I personally found very rude (and yes, I know about placebo's, in fact I'm a psychologist and society spent a large amount of money letting me learn me about the foibles of the human mind).
All sources sound the same too to them BTW, so do amps, so basically all hifigear sounds the same, though they admit there might be some difference between very small and very large speakers
But I agree, my Audioquest coral IC has a very different sound them my favorite Kimber silver streak. F.i. the size of the vertical soundstage is clearly different.
Of course the difference isn't as big as chancing f.i. the room the stuff is in, but once you got the complete setup and placement experimenting with cables (and f.i. decoupling of the speakers to the floor) is worthwhile to tune it to what you like.
And even if the objective measurable difference is small, who cares, subjectively the sound can still go from unpleasant to pleasant, which is a large difference in my book.

Also remember these measurefreaks tried to persuade us that cheap transistor amps sounded better then tubeamps because they measured better, and Cd sounds better the vinyl for the same reason, in fact they managed to let the majority give up listening to music.

 

[Know Talent]

I like the bottled water analogy!

Though IMO that would apply only to power cords while ICs would be more like comparing various brands of tonic water and speaker wire maybe like ginger ales? ...Canada Dry and Vernors having very distinctive tastes to my buds.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dura /img/forum/go_quote.gif Brave threat; soon you'll have people here telling you that you are imagining things without them ever hearing your gear. Which I personally found very rude (and yes, I know about placebo's, in fact I'm a psychologist and society spent a large amount of money letting me learn me about the foibles of the human mind).

By Psychologist do you mean you have a Doctorate in Psychology or are a chartered member of a national Psychological society educated to at least Masters level. I ask as I sometimes use the "I am a Psychologist" ploy - I should not do this as I merely have BA and MSc degrees in Psychology.

Also it is possible to be a Psychologist and also be wrong or at least to be victim to the same psychological artifacts that afflicts non-psychologists.

Quote:

All sources sound the same too to them BTW, so do amps, so basically all hifigear sounds the same, though they admit there might be some difference between very small and very large speakers

Funnily enough this last weekend I spent a fun couple of hours with my 3 CD players and a fast rotary action switch box. I had to conclude that to my ears my new favourite CD player Philips CD582 (16 x 2 TDA1541) , really did sound amazingly similar to my Onkyo DX1400 (18 x 8) and Marantz CC4300 (Bitstream 8x) and that apart from volume the exernal DAC applied to the Marantz really didnt make much difference at all. This is just my non-scientific test and non generalizable but I remember the great Juian Hirsch back in the early 80s opined that CD players of that generation really did sound the same.

As for amps there was a iconoclastic article back in the 1980s called "Do All Amplifiers sound the same" by Ian Masters and Dave Clark - worth a read.


Quote:

Also remember these measurefreaks tried to persuade us that cheap transistor amps sounded better then tubeamps because they measured better, and Cd sounds better the vinyl for the same reason, in fact they managed to let the majority give up listening to music

Sounded better is a subjective issue. Flatter frequency response, lower distortion, lower crosstalk and bigger dynamic range are quantitatve measures. Vinyl sounds different to CD, some prefer it some do not, frankly 99.5% of music listeners seem to prefer CD.

I went digital in 1984 because to me it did sound better and as a fan of classical music the lower levels of extraneous noise especially during quiet passages enhanced my enjoyment. This is just my personal take on it of course but once I had heard music without noise I could not go back.

 

[Know Talent]

Not to sound like a broken record...But, If viynl was so OBVIOUSLY superior to digital why are the few viynl holdouts I know usually first to arrive and last to leave when I throw a listening party?

...is it the free beer?

 

[r3cc0s]

I must admit... the evolution of media has sacrificed quality for convenience

Reel 2 Reel -> Vinyl LP -> 8 Track -> Tape -> CD -> MP3

Mind you there are exceptions to all the rules, such as quality tape players such as the Nak Dragon, quality CDPs w/ SACD/HD, and MP3 FLAAC off of a good squeezebox

But even I am to admit, even though I am a CD guy, that Vinyl does sound best.
Proper turntable such as a Rega P3 or VPI Scoutmaster with a quality MMC cartridge from Otophone/Benz/Grado with a "quality" phonostage can produce some of the most amazing reproduction of "live" sound you can imagine

Granted that when dealing with Vinyl, you have to worry about mass dampening, isolation boards, extra cables, wearing out stylus/belts
The Media itself has to be cared for, cleaned and stored appropriately.
Generally the albums need to be ordered, which means they are subjected to the abuse of courier services.

But with all that aside, Vinyl is absolutely superior in my mind.

However, My Jolida JD100A turns on, I put in a cd and press play... and its easy as can be.
Squeezebox, well even easier

 

[Uncle Erik]

You can distinguish bottled waters with a mass spectrometer and by other chemical analysis.

Why don't you put your cables on an oscilloscope and other electrical testing devices?

Do you know why cable manufacturers don't do this? Some get millions in revenue from sales. Yet they will not spend $5,000 on a high end 'scope. Or at least they won't tell us they did.

Wouldn't it make sense to test your own products against competitors to prove yours are better? This is a multi-million dollar industry. Why not use science to beat the competition? Everyone from computer manufacturers to laundry detergent makers do this.

Why not cables?

Suppose they secretly tried and found no difference?

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Know Talent /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not to sound like a broken record...But, If viynl was so OBVIOUSLY superior to digital why are the few viynl holdouts I know usually first to arrive and last to leave when I throw a listening party? ...is it the free beer?

I struggled with vinyl for many years in the 70s/80s trying desperately to overcome its limitations and always being disappointed. When I heard my first CD player which was 50% more expensve than my Rega with limited software availability and the software itself was far more expensive than vinyl as well and it was a mere 14 bit machine but the clarity of the sound, the rock solid speed stability compared to vinyl and the breathtaking lack of background grunty at all volume levels well that was it for me.

It is a very different sound and it is easy to see why some folks do not like it as much as vinyl , a CD player is utterly unforgiving of a bad recording.

I was listening to the Trumpet Virtuoso (DG) compilation on Saturday and enjoying it mightily and then it hit track 15 on Disc two and GAK ! it was awful !, noisy and heavily distorted, it was a crappy 1965 recording and the CD player was not going to let me forget. Thankfully the other 18 tracks were much better recorded...

 

[Michael415]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dura /img/forum/go_quote.gif Brave threat; soon you'll have people here telling you that you are imagining things without them ever hearing your gear. Which I personally found very rude (and yes, I know about placebo's, in fact I'm a psychologist and society spent a large amount of money letting me learn me about the foibles of the human mind). All sources sound the same too to them BTW, so do amps, so basically all hifigear sounds the same, though they admit there might be some difference between very small and very large speakers But I agree, my Audioquest coral IC has a very different sound them my favorite Kimber silver streak. F.i. the size of the vertical soundstage is clearly different. Of course the difference isn't as big as chancing f.i. the room the stuff is in, but once you got the complete setup and placement experimenting with cables (and f.i. decoupling of the speakers to the floor) is worthwhile to tune it to what you like. And even if the objective measurable difference is small, who cares, subjectively the sound can still go from unpleasant to pleasant, which is a large difference in my book. Also remember these measurefreaks tried to persuade us that cheap transistor amps sounded better then tubeamps because they measured better, and Cd sounds better the vinyl for the same reason, in fact they managed to let the majority give up listening to music.

Please speak for yourself and not as a psychologist, its embarrassing to the rest of us that actually have our doctorate level degrees. I also find it very disconcerting your entire slant of throwing your degree in as if it carries some credibility (argument from authority) which it does not regarding placebo unless you have been published on the topic.
Even more disconcerting would be your total dismissal of objective and logical thinking. I HOPE with your patients (if you are actually a therapist) you don't diagnose in the same irresponsible way (or is the DSM/ICD a bit too measurefreakish for you).
I am writing harshly not because I have an investment in cables making a difference or not, to be honest I could care less. What I do care about is someone trying to speak from a position of authority where none exists, or a superior view because somehow they magically know by tacking on their degree. If you are going to try and play the professional card your going to need to act like one. It is ironic you find it rude if someone says your imagining differences, but you go on a diatribe on anyone who doesn't have the same view as yourself.

 

[dura]

My apologies for the psychologist-remark, in hindsight unnecessary and not clearly stated since it gives offence and also clouds the theme OP. It was triggered by my irritation by the "I'm an electrotechnical engineer/work in a studio and therefore am sure cable-appreciators-are-crazy" approach sometimes seen here, I should have stayed more to the point.

What I meant to say was that I'm well aware of the theoretical research that clearly shows peoples perceptions are dependent on other factors.
But my point is this argument is easily misused to ridicule all subtilities which some people find important and others do not care about or are not aware off.
Yet such subtilities exist, the OP waterdifferences is a good example, and so are cables IMO.
Respect is important; not caring for small differences is everyones free choice, telling other people they are hearing/seeing/tasting things that aren't there seems rude to me.

If someone prefers digital above analogue, fine.
If this person accusing analogue lovers that they are addicted to euphonic distortion and Cd sounds more pure because you can measure that, not fine; people differ in their sensitivities.

In Holland 10 years ago we had a troll who kept on claiming cables all sounded the same, spoiling all treats about cables telling people they were wrong no matter what the original the subject was; irritating, irrelevant and rude, since such a response would only be accurate if the treatsubject was 'is there an audible difference between cables?'. (Like often happens here too I think).
Finally a DBT was conducted and it turned out people were very well able to consistently hear differences and recognise their preference (not always the most expensive cable BTW, I see little justification for overtly expensive cables, but what is too expensive again seems personal).

(BTW, I do have a MD psychology, worked for a few years in a mental institution as a psychologist and was a member of the national psychologist association, but have to admit this all was quite some time ago).

 

[LawnGnome]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif You can distinguish bottled waters with a mass spectrometer and by other chemical analysis. Why don't you put your cables on an oscilloscope and other electrical testing devices? Do you know why cable manufacturers don't do this? Some get millions in revenue from sales. Yet they will not spend $5,000 on a high end 'scope. Or at least they won't tell us they did. Wouldn't it make sense to test your own products against competitors to prove yours are better? This is a multi-million dollar industry. Why not use science to beat the competition? Everyone from computer manufacturers to laundry detergent makers do this. Why not cables? Suppose they secretly tried and found no difference?

Bingo.

 

[r3cc0s]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif Bingo.

This is true, if proven via science, everyone would easily go out and purchase the ideal cable... or if proven otherwise, no one would ever purchase cables.

Now the fact is, there is science.
This can be measured for things such as the resistance and qualities of metals, their tolerance to oxidation and gauge, which have direct implication to the degradation of the signal.
Likewise what goes into the design of the braid or ribbon, filtering and shielding as RF is a KNOWN phenomenon.

 

[Know Talent]

My guess is our hearing is less precise than the sonic impact of many/most exotic cabling, capacitors, resistors, clocks, etc... "tweaks/upgrades/mods" touted as offering "DRAMATIC" sonic improvements (differences)

by those who stand to profit from our desire for "better" (different) sound ???

by those who take advertizing money to keep a rag or internet forum afloat ???

 

[r3cc0s]

Why is it that my Eichmann eXpress cables, and the MAC/Decware silvers are as good as cables which cost 3-4 times their cost?

You reach a point of diminishing returns awfully quick in this hobby.

 

[Know Talent]

Quote:

Originally Posted by r3cc0s /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why is it that my Eichmann eXpress cables, and the MAC/Decware silvers are as good as cables which cost 3-4 times their cost? You reach a point of diminishing returns awfully quick in this hobby.

Why do you think the myth of XXX hundred hour break in periods is perpetuated...maybe so those offering 30 money back guarentees can leave you with the impression the cable or electronic has not burned in adequately and you end up keeping it past the 30 days...waiting for that magic change to occur!

there is a feminine hygiene device euphemism for such people