[JayNetTech5]

The two least harsh sounding ESS-based dacs I remember hearing was that HiFimeDiY 9018 dongle, and the Monoprice Monolith USB DAC (dongle), released several years ago. The Monolith had a very rich, smooth and coherent sound, the Hifime was very dark, bassy, almost overly laid back and refined with a strange depressive tone to vocals, also somewhat rich, while the Monolith was more energetic and balanced. Both dacs use ESS ES9018K2M chips. The worst one I heard was the Dragonfly Black (v1.5), it just sounded overly mid-range energetic, lacked warmth and timbre, and was only good for genres like punk, fast songs, or tracks that weren't very melodic. I think the Dragonfly was using a ES9018 as well, not sure though, however, you can pick out certain characteristics of a DAC more so than the entire sound signature of the whole unit, imo. Good implementation does make a chip do its best job and what it's good at doing, and every chip may have some color that pairs well, and is synergistic with the right power supply, circuitry, and output stage. A lot of the ESS dacs do have an unrefined harshness, but I really appreciate how detailed they can be.

 

[peterinvan]

I use both the Cayin RU6 (ladder DAC) and the FiiO KA3 (ES9038Q2M DAC).

The RU6 has a noticeably better sound overall. It draws too much power for my iPhone 6, so the KA3 serves that use case. That said, I don’t find any Saber “glare“ on the KA3.

 

[JayNetTech5]

I use both the Cayin RU6 (ladder DAC) and the FiiO KA3 (ES9038Q2M DAC).

The RU6 has a noticeably better sound overall. It draws too much power for my iPhone 6, so the KA3 serves that use case. That said, I don’t find any Saber “glare“ on the KA3.

I had the RU6 for a short time. I liked the instrument timbres, but I did not like the overly smooth lower-end, erratic volume changes throughout the tracks, like someone was messing with a knob, and something about the quality felt kinda compressed and speared, looking back. It did have a really nice depth in the soundstage though, and that's one thing I also loved, besides the timbres. I would buy an RU6 again, but it's too expensive, when I've enjoyed much cheaper delta-sigma counterparts.

 

[Skylit]

I've had 3 AKM desktop DAC's and they all typically have a more narrow soundstage over what I've used and had previously. All 3 tested with the same reference 32 ohm Headphone... I don't think it's fair to use different cans.

The best sounding one is a newer 4493SEQ in a Topping DX1.. Subjectively? It's worse than a $9 apple dongle for my ears.

It's not that the apple dongle is better, because the DX1 is much more clear, but it lacks a mid range or soundstage that I generally prefer.

The second more recent AKM model I've used is the 4377 in the Creative X1.

Without effects, this also has a narrow soundstage over the same $9 usb-c apple dongle, but they differ significantly in how music is perceived.. On my macbook, this DAC sounds quite decent, but moving over to PC changes it for the worse.. It becomes very harsh.

Maybe the windows internal volume slider + AMP/gain is the issue? It's unfortunate that you cant set two gain modes.. Preamp setting helped, but I want something plug and play in default config.. OCD I guess.

This one wasn't as smooth as the DX1, but very close to apple dongle... just narrow soundstage and more harsh at preferred volume via Windows PC.

The 3rd was a basic FIIO Q1 M2.. Decent, but the battery expanded randomly.. I sold it for parts on ebay.. What a waste of money. Same smaller soundstage.

It's possible that PC EMI/Crosstalk is impacting my perception in some areas.

I used to love Burr Brown stuff 10 years ago..

I don't know what it is, but both BB dacs/sound cards I used to own had that "wow" factor I enjoyed with my choice of headphones. I regret selling both my Musiland Monitor 02 US (PCM1793) and Creative Titanium HD (PCM1794) sound card over 10 years ago. Both of these cards likely measured horrible and maybe it was placebo vs other cards, but there was something magical in both units.

Older cirrus logic chips? Hit or miss.. Some stuff like Soundblaster Z with CS4398 (former cirrus flagship) was okay.. I also loved my Elite Pro.. which was more or less the flagship "PC card" pre Titanium HD back in the day (4x CS4398 for all channels), but the BB variant creative cards were much better subjectively.. Engaging.. Fun.. Great sound stage..

I've had multiple Cirrus cards/DAC's but finding the right one or implementation is tricky IMO. The worse cirrus implementation I tried was in a Mackie interface.. Good god.. it was bad and not worth the purchase even though I needed one at the time.

My favorite Cirrus? The 43131 (Newer design maybe based off Wolfson?) in the Creative G6.. It wasn't as fun or warm as the burr brown in my previous dacs, but it offered a next level of clarity/detail... I consider both the newer CS43198/CS43131 "very good" if implemented half decently well.

Not much experience with ESS, but the soundstage on my motherboard is bigger than any AKM chip I've used... So I can conclude AKM is worse in this regard (for my ears). A well implemented AKM DAC with good measurements has clarity, but it it doesn't have clarity detail.

Sorry for rambling, thats my subjective experience.


Edit: I know the audio science elitist will write this off but who cares? Yes a DAC's job is to covert 1s and 0s, but these people act like the overall config isn't influence by DAC chip at all... Which I will disagree.

Even basic power/EE difference between designs should change perceivable sound. If a device is susceptible to interference, there is going to be some degree of variance between products, even of the same general design and output config. It's just the nature of electronics.

I'm not here to argue that people can or can't hear certain things, but I will argue that subjectivity is real, even if the measurements cannot show certain things. IE: The X1 I had should measure well if its based on the original SXFI amp, but I f'ing can't stand using that thing on my PC... Too harsh with my preferred headphone and setup.

There was/is a topping engineer that posted on audioscience review with the same opinion before he joined the company. (Not any specific dacs, but generally in favor of subjectivity).

I wouldn't discredit anyone personally. I believe there is subjective merit to options, even if they don't align with other opinions.

 

[LFC_SL]

Unsure that I quite understand the recent posts. 'Reviewing' different DAC models, sometimes from unrelated manufacturers, no reference to power supplies, analogue outputs, any other implementation or design choices just solely the DAC chip model, like it is a computer graphics card...

 

[JayNetTech5]

Unsure that I quite understand the recent posts. 'Reviewing' different DAC models, sometimes from unrelated manufacturers, no reference to power supplies, analogue outputs, any other implementation or design choices just solely the DAC chip model, like it is a computer graphics card...

We literally were talking about different implementations... Going on about everything you just said in detail would just make it long and drawn out, and not matter that much anyway from an informative point of view, since it's not something "most" are going to properly narrow down throughout the entire designs just to figure out why certain ones work for them, while others don't, or how such would be useful from a consumer's point of view. Regardless, the point was, that we are all in agreement that the specific chip designs that such and such is built around matters to some people, which again, implementation was part of the discussion in the recent posts you were speaking of. Plus, it's meant to be a fun topic, since there are many chip designs out there with manufacturers providing their own bias for sound reproduction, whether or not some implementations are more or less nuanced with specific DAC chip models used.

 

[o0genesis0o]

I've had 3 AKM desktop DAC's and they all typically have a more narrow soundstage over what I've used and had previously. All 3 tested with the same reference 32 ohm Headphone... I don't think it's fair to use different cans.

The best sounding one is a newer 4493SEQ in a Topping DX1.. Subjectively? It's worse than a $9 apple dongle for my ears.

It's not that the apple dongle is better, because the DX1 is much more clear, but it lacks a mid range or soundstage that I generally prefer.

The second more recent AKM model I've used is the 4377 in the Creative X1.

Without effects, this also has a narrow soundstage over the same $9 usb-c apple dongle, but they differ significantly in how music is perceived.. On my macbook, this DAC sounds quite decent, but moving over to PC changes it for the worse.. It becomes very harsh.

Maybe the windows internal volume slider + AMP/gain is the issue? It's unfortunate that you cant set two gain modes.. Preamp setting helped, but I want something plug and play in default config.. OCD I guess.

This one wasn't as smooth as the DX1, but very close to apple dongle... just narrow soundstage and more harsh at preferred volume via Windows PC.

The 3rd was a basic FIIO Q1 M2.. Decent, but the battery expanded randomly.. I sold it for parts on ebay.. What a waste of money. Same smaller soundstage.

It's possible that PC EMI/Crosstalk is impacting my perception in some areas.

I used to love Burr Brown stuff 10 years ago..

I don't know what it is, but both BB dacs/sound cards I used to own had that "wow" factor I enjoyed with my choice of headphones. I regret selling both my Musiland Monitor 02 US (PCM1793) and Creative Titanium HD (PCM1794) sound card over 10 years ago. Both of these cards likely measured horrible and maybe it was placebo vs other cards, but there was something magical in both units.

Older cirrus logic chips? Hit or miss.. Some stuff like Soundblaster Z with CS4398 (former cirrus flagship) was okay.. I also loved my Elite Pro.. which was more or less the flagship "PC card" pre Titanium HD back in the day (4x CS4398 for all channels), but the BB variant creative cards were much better subjectively.. Engaging.. Fun.. Great sound stage..

I've had multiple Cirrus cards/DAC's but finding the right one or implementation is tricky IMO. The worse cirrus implementation I tried was in a Mackie interface.. Good god.. it was bad and not worth the purchase even though I needed one at the time.

My favorite Cirrus? The 43131 (Newer design maybe based off Wolfson?) in the Creative G6.. It wasn't as fun or warm as the burr brown in my previous dacs, but it offered a next level of clarity/detail... I consider both the newer CS43198/CS43131 "very good" if implemented half decently well.

Not much experience with ESS, but the soundstage on my motherboard is bigger than any AKM chip I've used... So I can conclude AKM is worse in this regard (for my ears). A well implemented AKM DAC with good measurements has clarity, but it it doesn't have clarity detail.

Sorry for rambling, thats my subjective experience.


Edit: I know the audio science elitist will write this off but who cares? Yes a DAC's job is to covert 1s and 0s, but these people act like the overall config isn't influence by DAC chip at all... Which I will disagree.

Even basic power/EE difference between designs should change perceivable sound. If a device is susceptible to interference, there is going to be some degree of variance between products, even of the same general design and output config. It's just the nature of electronics.

I'm not here to argue that people can or can't hear certain things, but I will argue that subjectivity is real, even if the measurements cannot show certain things. IE: The X1 I had should measure well if its based on the original SXFI amp, but I f'ing can't stand using that thing on my PC... Too harsh with my preferred headphone and setup.

There was/is a topping engineer that posted on audioscience review with the same opinion before he joined the company. (Not any specific dacs, but generally in favor of subjectivity).

I wouldn't discredit anyone personally. I believe there is subjective merit to options, even if they don't align with other opinions.

Interesting that you find X1 has unsatisfactory staging without the effect. I pair the X1 with Nintendo Switch regularly, and I find the perception of depth and layering (not necessarily width) extends noticeably with the AFUL P5 IEM. The P5 is a narrow IEM, but with X1 (no effect), the stage seems to come from forward, like a two channel system.

Coincidentally, both Shanling M6U and FiiO K7 with latest (?) AKM chips sound quite nice and full and a bit less edgy than my Topping G5 (single ESS). And all three resolve more micro details and pull the soundstage away from me a bit compared to all of my dongles (no M15 or RU6 in my collection, though).

I still think it’s the whole system (DAC + Amp + power supply), not just individual component. Though Shanling seems to struggle to replicate their fuller “house sound” with ESS chips.

Btw, step aside, both AKM and ESS. This year seems to be about CL chips

 

[JayNetTech5]

Btw, step aside, both AKM and ESS. This year seems to be about CL chips

Basically, just the CS43131, because of its low-power draw, and clean output, afaik. I'm currently listening with iBasso DC03PRO; its really good, especially for PC game imaging, imo, but needs good musical headphones/equipment for synergistic enjoyment, since it's not completely fun, immersive and engaging for a lot of music; it's not always super wide in soundstage, so it's actually kind of bittersweet to me.

 

[Skylit]

Interesting that you find X1 has unsatisfactory staging without the effect. I pair the X1 with Nintendo Switch regularly, and I find the perception of depth and layering (not necessarily width) extends noticeably with the AFUL P5 IEM. The P5 is a narrow IEM, but with X1 (no effect), the stage seems to come from forward, like a two channel system.

Coincidentally, both Shanling M6U and FiiO K7 with latest (?) AKM chips sound quite nice and full and a bit less edgy than my Topping G5 (single ESS). And all three resolve more micro details and pull the soundstage away from me a bit compared to all of my dongles (no M15 or RU6 in my collection, though).

I still think it’s the whole system (DAC + Amp + power supply), not just individual component. Though Shanling seems to struggle to replicate their fuller “house sound” with ESS chips.

Btw, step aside, both AKM and ESS. This year seems to be about CL chips

I think its the overall picture..

The X1 sounds amazing on my M1 Macbook. Not harsh at all, but I can still notice the stage is smaller than my cirrus logic based apple dongle.. which isn't as "clean" as other products I own.

I also think EMI is real and impacts audio products perception. The overall EE design of a product itself might outweigh a lot of factors.

I just find it weird that every AKM based dac I've used has this "narrow" soundstage relative to other DAC chips/products.. Maybe it has something to do with ear shape? Similar to how super xfi imaging works?

I can't explain how or why.

 

[JayNetTech5]

I think its the overall picture..

The X1 sounds amazing on my M1 Macbook. Not harsh at all, but I can still notice the stage is smaller than my cirrus logic based apple dongle.. which isn't as "clean" as other products I own.

I also think EMI is real and impacts audio products perception. The overall EE design of a product itself might outweigh a lot of factors.

I just find it weird that every AKM based dac I've used has this "narrow" soundstage relative to other DAC chips/products.. Maybe it has something to do with ear shape? Similar to how super xfi imaging works?

I can't explain how or why.

Nothing I purchased still has beaten my original PS1 (old as me) with the old AKM inside. It either came close in some regard, but never the entire character, to my ears.

 

[Skylit]

Nothing I purchased still has beaten my original PS1 (old as me) with the old AKM inside. It either came close in some regard, but never the entire character, to my ears..

Who knows.. It's one of those things where measurements of certain products won't tell us anything.

A lot of people don't like the DX3 PRO+ for example because its "too harsh", but I think there are outside factors at play.

A majority of full size AVR's don't measure well (sub 90 sinad) relative to the newer wave of DACs, but id likely prefer some options subjectively.. I wish there was someone that could point us in the right direction.. I like high specs as much as the next guy but there are obviously other factors.

 

[JayNetTech5]

Who knows.. It's one of those things where measurements of certain products won't tell us anything.

A lot of people don't like the DX3 PRO+ for example because its "too harsh", but I think there are outside factors at play.

A majority of full size AVR's don't measure well (sub 90 sinad) relative to the newer wave of DACs, but id likely prefer some options subjectively.. I wish there was someone that could point us in the right direction.. I like high specs as much as the next guy but there are obviously other factors.

I agree, look at my most recent post on the new iBasso DC03Pro. Two of the same exact device with quite a nuanced sound impression. I'm not even sure which one in my possession is supposed to sound "right" out of the factory.

 

[Skylit]

I agree, look at my most recent post on the new iBasso DC03Pro. Two of the same exact device with quite a nuanced sound impression. I'm not even sure which one in my possession is supposed to sound "right" out of the factory.

Sounds like a Tolerance factor between units. I wouldn't be surprised if Chinese stuff has more variance in exchange for chasing absolute numbers/specs.

 

[JayNetTech5]

Sounds like a Tolerance factor between units. I wouldn't be surprised if Chinese stuff has more variance in exchange for chasing absolute numbers/specs.

Take that into account for people who reviewed it, and either liked or didn't like that dac, but there's some tolerances between units, plus, the people's brains interpreting each sound profile differently. Think of all the dacs out there with great specs but people either love or hate them for reasons your brain may or may not comprehend. In reality, it would be hard to settle with anything, if you are super particular about sound, like I am.

 

[Skylit]

Take that into account for people who reviewed it, and either liked or didn't like that dac, but there's some tolerances between units, plus, the people's brains interpreting each sound profile differently. Think of all the dacs out there with great specs but people either love or hate them for reasons your brain may or may not comprehend. In reality, it would be hard to settle with anything, if you are super particular about sound, like I am.

Oh I certainly agree. Same case for people that take measurements as absolute fact.