[InnerSpace]

Quote:

... classical music is rarely compressed.

Classical music is generally compressed much less, I agree, but it's always compressed to some degree, and the less it's compressed the more the gain is ridden too, often quite clumsily.  So we're screwed either way.
 

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Classical music is generally compressed much less, I agree, but it's always compressed to some degree, and the less it's compressed the more the gain is ridden too, often quite clumsily.  So we're screwed either way.

I'd rather ride the gain from the bottom than from the top.
That's why, with today's great equipment, you can record your original masters in all their glory, untouched by compression, peaking at -10dB and dithering on the bottom, and then carefully analyze what you have before deciding on how and what to compress in mixdown.
 

 

[InnerSpace]

Quote:

Well, I think it really is actually. 

Then we'll have to agree to disagree.  I think it's much more likely that the sensitivity is much lower than the manufacturer claims - not that he claims anything, technically: the spec reads "Efficiency: 83.5 db" ... Skipping past the fact that "efficiency" is the wrong parameter here (should be expressed as a percentage of electrical power converted to acoustic power) and that sensitivity is what we need, we don't know what produces that 83.5 db - a volt?  A milliwatt?  A watt?  At what distance?  At what frequency?
 

 

[InnerSpace]

Quote:

I'd rather ride the gain from the bottom than from the top.
 
 

Me too.  I wish more engineers shared our opinion.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

... I think it's much more likely that the sensitivity is much lower than the manufacturer claims - not that he claims anything, technically: the spec reads "Efficiency: 83.5 db" ... Skipping past the fact that "efficiency" is the wrong parameter here (should be expressed as a percentage of electrical power converted to acoustic power) and that sensitivity is what we need, we don't know what produces that 83.5 db - a volt?  A milliwatt?  A watt?  At what distance?  At what frequency?
 

That's actually not a bad idea, it's just that the average Joe would have no point of reference to start with.  Then there's the challenge of getting manufacturers to agree on standards.....
 
Come to think about it, some manufacturers sort of back into listing this sensitivity, but only in part.  For example, LCD-2 is spec'd at 91dB/mW (on the ear) and spec'd to handle 15WRMS, producing 133dB SPL.  If you follow 3dB progression from the bottom, there is some obvious dynamic non linearity going on at the top of the range.  We need to see these numbers done with A weighted pink noise, 20-20k, along with spectrographic analysis at multiple SPL's.
 
I'm sure it's worse with many cans, maybe better with some.
 

 

[InnerSpace]

Quote:

That's actually not a bad idea, it's just that the average Joe would have no point of reference to start with.  Then there's the challenge of getting manufacturers to agree on standards.....
 
Come to think about it, some manufacturers sort of back into listing this sensitivity, but only in part.  For example, LCD-2 is spec'd at 91dB/mW (on the ear) and spec'd to handle 15WRMS, producing 133dB SPL.  If you follow 3dB progression from the bottom, there is some obvious dynamic non linearity going on at the top of the range.  We need to see these numbers done with A weighted pink noise, 20-20k, along with spectrographic analysis at multiple SPL's.
 
I'm sure it's worse with many cans, maybe better with some.
 

Good observation.  I think it's because once a circular edge-clamped diaphragm reaches the limit of its elasticity, it simply can't move any further no matter how much power is poured on.  So the limit of travel is reached, and excess power is then converted to heat.
 
I like efficiency rather than sensitivity too, but the numbers are too depressing for the marketing people.  Back in the day big horn speakers might approach 40%, but small infinite-baffle speakers quickly fell back to 5% or less.  Not encouraging to the consumer.
 

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Good observation.  I think it's because once a circular edge-clamped diaphragm reaches the limit of its elasticity, it simply can't move any further no matter how much power is poured on.  So the limit of travel is reached, and excess power is then converted to heat.
 
I like efficiency rather than sensitivity too, but the numbers are too depressing for the marketing people.  Back in the day big horn speakers might approach 40%, but small infinite-baffle speakers quickly fell back to 5% or less.  Not encouraging to the consumer.

Given the gullibility of the public, I would think it would be a relatively easy sell if the ideas were "marketed" properly.  Might take a little time, but in the long run, the public would be better informed and happier for it.  It's the manufacturers who would have one less point of obfuscation to hide behind. 
 
 

 

[hentai]

Regarding my O2 amp 727 , not only i did the mod for the amp , I also had a very experienced hifi techinican to make a outboard power supply. That means the 727 amp no longer uses the stock transformer. Far better separation, superior clarity and bass control.The output voltage has also increased by about 10% - 15%

 

[hentai]

Quote:

Used prices are much lower than new... So what do you mean by real world?
 
Amps aren't that pricey if you've read the previous posts. You can get a 727/O2 rig that can trump most dynamic rigs and the O2 STILL has room for improvement. Considering the best amp for the O2 isn't the best way to consider what's "worth it" when less than ideal amplification still kills everything else.

Yes and i would like add that O2 is like a mirror to the rest of the system. Every component including the cables affects the overall sound considerably.
 

 

[Happy Camper]

So Visualguy,
 
You got to listen to the HE-6 with some speaker amps this weekend. Any comments?
 
I got to use the monoblocks this weekend and they are staying. The separation and expanded soundstage has convinced me to try a balanced source to hear if it expands the experience. Having more power (if you have a speaker amp available) does reward the sound out of the HE-6 because they respond like a planar speaker and not a dynamic driver. They can and will take some juice.

 

[visualguy]

Quote:

So Visualguy,
 
You got to listen to the HE-6 with some speaker amps this weekend. Any comments?
 
I got to use the monoblocks this weekend and they are staying. The separation and expanded soundstage has convinced me to try a balanced source to hear if it expands the experience. Having more power (if you have a speaker amp available) does reward the sound out of the HE-6 because they respond like a planar speaker and not a dynamic driver. They can and will take some juice.

I listened to the HE-6 with a balanced Beta 22. That amp can drive speakers (36W into 8ohm, 11.2W into 32ohm, 8W into 50ohm). The HE-6 sounds very good with the Beta 22, but it also sounds very good with the headphones amp in my DAC1 (which is only 1.5W into 50ohm). I haven't had a chance to perform a detailed comparison yet, so there might be some minor differences in sound, but certainly nothing major or I would have noticed it already. I didn't hear anything that would make me change my view of the HE-6 when compared to the HD800 or SR-007.
 
By the way, I find the soundstange on the HD800 to be somewhat annoying. The weird thing about it is that is sounds like it's coming from somewhere above your head. The HE-6 and SR-007 are fine in this regard. It's hard for me to get used to hearing the sound coming from the ceiling...
 
The SR-007 is certainly far better than the HD800 or the HE-6. The HD800 and HE-6 are flawed in different ways. They sound very different - I would say that they're somewhat complementary (which is why I keep both). However, from a sound quality perspective, there's no point in owning the HD800 or HE-6 if you own the SR-007 in my opinion. I keep the HD800 and HE-6 only because I like mucking around with this stuff.
 

 

[visualguy]

Quote:

So Visualguy,
 
You got to listen to the HE-6 with some speaker amps this weekend. Any comments?
 
 

 
Ok, so I finally had a chance to do a more detailed comparison between the Beta 22 and the DAC1 with the HE-6. These headphones do indeed sound somewhat better on the Beta 22 than they do on the DAC1. In particular, the bass is fuller, instrument separation seems to be better, and in general the sound seems to be somewhat better overall. The differences aren't huge, but significant-enough to be noticeable and affect the enjoyment to some extent.
 
The problem is that I don't know what to attribute this to. It's true that the Beta 22 has more power than the DAC1, but it may also be true that it's just a better amp... Another reason why it's hard to say what's causing the difference is that I'm driving the Beta 22 from the balanced outputs of the DAC1, but the DAC1 headphones output is driven by the single-ended part of the DAC, and these may not sound the same, so I can't tell for sure if the headphones amp even has anything to do with the sound difference...
 

 

[grokit]

From the early days of the HE-6 thread it seems that the complaints regarding soundstage depth and center imaging issues were largely alleviated with more power. The HE-6 still may not be everyone's cup of tea, but these issues at least can be solved.

 

[Happy Camper]

I applaud your effort to at least give it a try. You have heard what power provides to the performance of the HE-6. Until I heard them on a speaker amp, I wasn't thrilled with the bass compared to the LCD-2. While the LCDs are still better IMO, the HE-6 gets solid marks without being overdone. Strong, detailed and controlled on a good amp with current reserves.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Quote:

From the early days of the HE-6 thread it seems that the complaints regarding soundstage depth and center imaging issues were largely alleviated with more power. The HE-6 still may not be everyone's cup of tea, but these issues at least can be solved.

With both my Concerto/WA2 (neither ideal HE-6 amps), I don't have any issues with sound stage depth or center imaging.