[BlackbeardBen]

Excellent tests and methods, nick_charles.  I'm very impressed.
 
Interesting that to those who are head-fast in their opinion that cables can make a large difference will say anything to attempt to discount any sort of scientific testing, and yet as soon as there's even a spec of information that may support them they suddenly agree...  And if some procedural flaw is found that led to said results, it's effectively ignored...
 
I have to agree with your conclusion that even if the noise and variability of the extra DAC/ADC step and your source are covering up differences, it's clear that they're so small as to be utterly irrelevant.
 
Also, it'd be really great if you were to consolidate all of your tests (including the ones that were invalidated as a result of poor procedure) onto the front page in the first couple of posts (or link to a new post with everything, to keep the original order of things intact) - that way it would be easier for people to read, understand, and digest.

 

[leeperry]

Hey Nick, I got some good links for you:
http://www.hificables.fr/PDF/Tarif%202011.pdf
 
^ these are the grossly inflated markups the guy makes on his "jaw dropping" cables(and he will increase them by 30% early next month, due to he price increase of copper).
 
http://www.hificables.fr/interviewJCT.html
 
^ that's his interview, where he says at the very end that the difference between cables cannot measured.
 
http://www.hificables.fr/nos-clients.html
 
^ that's his supposedly customers raving feedback, where he also advises to cut the ground pin off an extension cord in order to avoid groundloops.
 
What I find dubious is that:
-he claims that his cables are handmade, and that even the color of the teflon insulation changes the sound(due to the coloring agents)....but then he says that the wires are manufactured by a company that does cables for the avionics industry...so much for handmade? like he doesn't have a braiding machine and does it by hand? hehe.
-this interview was from 2007 and he looks more or less 60 to me, so how's his hearing by now? Can a 65 y.o. guy judge by ear how a cable "sounds"?
-he says that cables can change the shape of the SS and so, and yet measure perfectly identically....on this, he has a strong point. I've spent a lot of time soldering wires for coax and plugging my headphones directly onto the RCA output of my Firestone Spitfire DAC(it's very convenient to roll opamps), and all cables sound different IME...there isn't the shadow of a doubt about this. I've even tried solid UPOCC Silver(ear shredding bright), the 99% silver/1% gold mundorf(lack of details). I also tried to recable a DT770/600 w/ the holy TWcu wire, and the sound was unbearable(distorted bass, veiled trebles).
 
Most ppl on audiophile forums seem to be stunned by his cables...so he's prolly doing something right? but basically what he's saying in his interview is: I make the best cables, and I make crazy markups...and my markups are even higher on the AES/EBU cables because the demand is very low.
 
here are some real world photos of his cables, he's using cheapo plugs as far as I can tell:
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2460/vueensemble.jpg
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/87/28139607.jpg
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/2838/83565148.jpg
 
These are made of SPC+Teflon and cost $150 a pop.
 
I read someone saying that the pro audio gear does more than the audiophile gear for less...because the demand is higher. That's basically what it boils down to I guess?
 
I've ordered some cables from this german shop: http://www.audio-hifi-shop.de/
 
the owner is very friendly, and has allowed me to buy small samples of a lot of wires....he told me that this one is great for coax, and recommended this one for stereo IC. Eager to try them! But honestly, I think the best coax cable is this one(24K pure gold plating and the shortest signal path ever)...we'll see whether the impedance mismatch matters so much(considering neither my USB transport or my DAC's use 75Ω plugs).
 
How do you measure soundstage? By measuring the phase coherence? Measuring THD/SNR is bound to fail, and it did...I think it'd be wise to reevaluate your benchmarks, and possibly use expensive test gear...maybe an analog oscilloscope would help?

 

[nick_charles]

Was this thread moved  or am getting paranoid ?

 

[kwkarth]

Yes, it was moved and I was the one that moved it.

 

[fzman]

Quote:

So let's not call a spade a kumquat.  
 

but, if you have binding posts, wouldn't prunes be more helpful?  

 

[BlackbeardBen]

Quote:

Was this thread moved  or am getting paranoid ?

It only took two days short of 13 months...

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

It only took two days short of 13 months...

I just happened to notice that it was not where it belonged, so I moved it.  

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

but, if you have binding posts, wouldn't prunes be more helpful?  

 
That's, actually, pretty funny! 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

 
Quote:

Hey Nick, I got some good links for you:
http://www.hificables.fr/PDF/Tarif%202011.pdf
 
^ these are the grossly inflated markups the guy makes on his "jaw dropping" cables(and he will increase them by 30% early next month, due to he price increase of copper).
 
http://www.hificables.fr/interviewJCT.html
 
^ that's his interview, where he says at the very end that the difference between cables cannot measured.
 
http://www.hificables.fr/nos-clients.html
 
^ that's his supposedly customers raving feedback, where he also advises to cut the ground pin off an extension cord in order to avoid groundloops.
 
What I find dubious is that:
-he claims that his cables are handmade, and that even the color of the teflon insulation changes the sound(due to the coloring agents)....but then he says that the wires are manufactured by a company that does cables for the avionics industry...so much for handmade? like he doesn't have a braiding machine and does it by hand? hehe.
-this interview was from 2007 and he looks more or less 60 to me, so how's his hearing by now? Can a 65 y.o. guy judge by ear how a cable "sounds"?
-he says that cables can change the shape of the SS and so, and yet measure perfectly identically....on this, he has a strong point. I've spent a lot of time soldering wires for coax and plugging my headphones directly onto the RCA output of my Firestone Spitfire DAC(it's very convenient to roll opamps), and all cables sound different IME...there isn't the shadow of a doubt about this. I've even tried solid UPOCC Silver(ear shredding bright), the 99% silver/1% gold mundorf(lack of details). I also tried to recable a DT770/600 w/ the holy TWcu wire, and the sound was unbearable(distorted bass, veiled trebles).
 
Most ppl on audiophile forums seem to be stunned by his cables...so he's prolly doing something right? but basically what he's saying in his interview is: I make the best cables, and I make crazy markups...and my markups are even higher on the AES/EBU cables because the demand is very low.
 
here are some real world photos of his cables, he's using cheapo plugs as far as I can tell:
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2460/vueensemble.jpg
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/87/28139607.jpg
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/2838/83565148.jpg
 
These are made of SPC+Teflon and cost $150 a pop.
 
I read someone saying that the pro audio gear does more than the audiophile gear for less...because the demand is higher. That's basically what it boils down to I guess?
 
I've ordered some cables from this german shop: http://www.audio-hifi-shop.de/
 
the owner is very friendly, and has allowed me to buy small samples of a lot of wires....he told me that this one is great for coax, and recommended this one for stereo IC. Eager to try them! But honestly, I think the best coax cable is this one(24K pure gold plating and the shortest signal path ever)...we'll see whether the impedance mismatch matters so much(considering neither my USB transport or my DAC's use 75Ω plugs).
 
How do you measure soundstage? By measuring the phase coherence? Measuring THD/SNR is bound to fail, and it did...I think it'd be wise to reevaluate your benchmarks, and possibly use expensive test gear...maybe an analog oscilloscope would help?

The plugs are Neutrik Rean and can be bought off ebay for about £2 each.
 
     

 

[nick_charles]

 
Quote:

 
http://www.hificables.fr/interviewJCT.html
 
^ that's his interview, where he says at the very end that the difference between cables cannot measured.
 
That I have to say (only a little bit cynically) is very convenient for him, so his proof that hsi cables are superior is .......?
 
 
he looks more or less 60 to me, so how's his hearing by now? Can a 65 y.o. guy judge by ear how a cable "sounds"?
 
If he is willing to DBT his cables vs others I would be interested to find out how well he did
 
he says that cables can change the shape of the SS and so, and yet measure perfectly identically....on this, he has a strong point. I've spent a lot of time soldering wires for coax and plugging my headphones directly onto the RCA output of my Firestone Spitfire DAC(it's very convenient to roll opamps), and all cables sound different IME...there isn't the shadow of a doubt about this.
 
On this point we will differ, all the cables I tested sounded the same (to me) and measured so similarly as for me to not be surprised, nor did anybody else detect any differences. For audible differences in cables I really want to see good DBTs, till then while I do not rule it out I remain skeptical.
 
 
Most ppl on audiophile forums seem to be stunned by his cables...so he's prolly doing something right?
 
Then if his cables are so "different" why do they measure the same as others  as he implies ? Surely such big differences would be easily measurable ?
 
 
How do you measure soundstage? By measuring the phase coherence? Measuring THD/SNR is bound to fail, and it did...I think it'd be wise to reevaluate your benchmarks, and possibly use expensive test gear...maybe an analog oscilloscope would help?
 
I consider the FR of a cable the single most defining quality it is the tone of the signal exiting. Nobody has explained to me the mechanism  by which a cable could alter soundstage and as far as we know phase delay (group delay) under 36 degrees is not audible !
 
I'll leave a follow up to folks with more time/money than me...
 
 
 

 

[kite7]

Quote:

     

 
You know for a second, I thought they were monoprice RCA cables in a pink sleeve

 

[leeperry]

 

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
all the cables I tested sounded the same (to me)

 
using what source/amp/phone? anything more analytical than a K501 or HD580? And your USB Roland thingie also prolly has cheap dual opamps and a noisy PSU...it's about bottlenecks, you know.
 
I'll keep reading their website and come back w/ quotes, but it's rather painful to go through all his audiophool nonsensical talk.
 
BTW, that's a 2ft. $250 "ISIS II" cable from them again:

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

 
 
using what source/amp/phone? anything more analytical than a K501 or HD580?
 
Using  FooBar(Lenovo PC) S/PDIF-----Entech 203.2------M^3 Amplifier-------HD580
 
 
And your USB Roland thingie also prolly has cheap dual opamps and a noisy PSU...it's about bottlenecks, you know.
 
As far as I can tell it is accurate to approximately a 16 bit standard  that is about 1 part in 64K. So it would hide differences below the LSB of a 16 bit system, I do not believe that this is a limiting factor in any pragmatic sense. If your premise is that cable differences are clearly audible but only on systems with > 16 bits I have to suggest that the evidence for human discrimination exceeding the capability of 16 bit systems in normal listening is to date only anecdotal. I keep suggesting others could replicate my attempts with better kit and better cables but nobody is up for it...
 
 
I'll keep reading their website and come back w/ quotes, but it's rather painful to go through all his audiophool nonsensical talk.
 
BTW, that's a 2ft. $250 "ISIS II" cable from them again:

 

 

[leeperry]

 

If your premise is that cable differences are clearly audible but only on systems with > 16 bits
 

 
I'm not crazy enough to listen >96dB. I'm only saying that you need a very transparent rig(possibly using monitoring grade headphones, a clean PSU and no dual opamps) if you wanna hear the differences between cables loudly and clearly. And when you say "S/PDIF", do you mean POF toslink? using what transport and receiver? Honestly, you need a highly analytical rig to roll cables or opamps.
 
I recently tried to roll opamps in those 2 DAC's:
http://poppulse.com.hk/pp1796mk2.html
http://isunwin.en.alibaba.com/product/361465765-210597154/WMA_Play_SMSL_SD_1955_DIR9001_Chip_AD1955_DAC_Audio_Decoder.html
 
these were sounding so lofi that they all sounded the same to me...no audible diff between NE5532/LT1028ACN8/OPA827, can you believe that. It's all about bottlenecks.

 

[nick_charles]

 
Quote:

 
 
I'm not crazy enough to listen >96dB. I'm only saying that you need a very transparent rig(possibly using monitoring grade headphones, a clean PSU and no dual opamps) if you wanna hear the differences between cables loudly and clearly.
 
My humble rig is good enough for me to DBT codecs, fllters, CD players and even digital transports ( but this was a rather extreme case with a transport that was not bit-perfect) and I have done similar tests successfully on even lesser rigs, siimilarly others here have done successful DBTs with quite modest kit.
 
 
And when you say "S/PDIF", do you mean POF toslink? using what transport and receiver? Honestly, you need a highly analytical rig to roll cables or opamps.
 
 
A plastic optical fiber cable connecting the optical out on a Lenovo Y710 notebook to an Entech 203.2 which uses a CS8412 input receiver. Conversion is performed by a CS4329 20-bit delta-sigma DAC, and there is a Burr-Brown OPA2134 op-amp for the output stage and analog low-pass filter. (courtesy of Stereophile). If you read the stereophile article there is a substantial set of measurements
 
http://www.stereophile.com/content/entech-number-cruncher-2032-2052-da-converters-measurements
 
it comes out of these very well.
 
 
I recently tried to roll opamps in those 2 DAC's:
http://poppulse.com.hk/pp1796mk2.html
http://isunwin.en.alibaba.com/product/361465765-210597154/WMA_Play_SMSL_SD_1955_DIR9001_Chip_AD1955_DAC_Audio_Decoder.html
 
these were sounding so lofi that they all sounded the same to me...no audible diff between NE5532/LT1028ACN8/OPA827, can you believe that.
 
I've not seen any reports on blind tests on those opamps to date, so I cannot comment or speculate.
 
It's all about bottlenecks.
 
It's really about the magnitude of differences and the ability to discriminate between stimulae. As long as any intervening steps do not add significant noise or diistortion they wlll not get in the way of the task. Headphones (any) are of course utter rubbish in absolute terms and orders of magnitude worse than DACs or amps...