[csglinux]

The V30 already has great sound why add the extra complication of adding an extra device -> existing headphone wire -> headphone?

Is this just because its possible and this is Head-Fi.

The second point.

You're absolutely right. It's silly.

IMHO, BT, in its current incarnation, just isn't ready for much more than making a ton of extra $$$$$s for Apple The few genuinely wire-free BT headsets I've tested or owned all have major problems.

I'm sure one day, our tiny little IEM buds won't need an mmcx socket anymore, because they'll all have a built-in 6 month battery, quality DAC and amp supporting lossless transmission of 384/24 PCM, no drop-outs, etc. There's a way to go yet though.

If you're going to plug in a wire, may as well plug it into the phone/DAP directly, right? To play Devil's advocate... Some folks have told me they like to have their phone free of potentially tangling wires. You can thread the wires and a small BT receiver like the XB10 or M0 or Earstudio into a pocket and then be (sort-of) wire-free when operating your phone.

People here take things to extreme though. There have been people on the M0 thread asking for simultaneous BT transmit/receive capability. I.e., transmit the BT to the M0, and then have the M0 forward the BT signal on to your BT earbuds. Because you can. Because this is headfi

 

[monsieurfromag3]

The V30 already has great sound why add the extra complication of adding an extra device -> existing headphone wire -> headphone?

Is this just because its possible and this is Head-Fi.

I do use my V30 with Bluetooth sometimes. MEE audio BTX1->Westone UM Pro 30 which sounds OK (not as good as when used wired though) and does make sense for convenience.

It's a legitimate question that I pondered plenty while waiting for the ES100 to become available in the EU. Turns out there are many use cases when it's preferable to a full-size DAP or even a thin phone such as the V30. I'm finding new opportunities to use it every week.

For instance when you have no pockets, or small ones. When at the gym you can clip it to your collar or your sleeve, it weighs nothing and is so tiny that it won't hamper your movements, all the while enabling you to keep enjoying your favorite wired gear. Or when you go grocery shopping and it's impractical to lug around the trolley with your phone in it tethered to the headphones on your head (esp. if, again, your pockets aren't up to the task). Most of the time I don't fancy walking about with the insane bulge of the phone in my pants pocket, so unless I have a coat with vast pockets or a handbag a proficient BT receiver is a great alternative. The V30's great features don't go to waste since the finer devices take advantage of aptX HD or LDAC implementation.

BT cables such as the MEE Audio are cool too - it's the exact same set-up in the end, but all of the ones I know of seem of lower quality than this new crop of BT receivers from Fiio, Earsone, Bluewave, alongside which I'd lump the M0.

 

[csglinux]

It's a legitimate question that I pondered plenty while waiting for the ES100 to become available in the EU. Turns out there are many use cases when it's preferable to a full-size DAP or even a thin phone such as the V30. I'm finding new opportunities to use it every week.

For instance when you have no pockets, or small ones. When at the gym you can clip it to your collar or your sleeve, it weighs nothing and is so tiny that it won't hamper your movements, all the while enabling you to keep enjoying your favorite wired gear. Or when you go grocery shopping and it's impractical to lug around the trolley with your phone in it tethered to the headphones on your head (esp. if, again, your pockets aren't up to the task). Most of the time I don't fancy walking about with the insane bulge of the phone in my pants pocket, so unless I have a coat with vast pockets or a handbag a proficient BT receiver is a great alternative. The V30's great features don't go to waste since the finer devices take advantage of aptX HD or LDAC implementation.

BT cables such as the MEE Audio are cool too - it's the exact same set-up in the end, but all of the ones I know of seem of lower quality than this new crop of BT receivers from Fiio, Earsone, Bluewave, alongside which I'd lump the M0.

I agree - you can find interesting use-cases for small BT receivers. Even more so for small stand-alone players, e.g., yard work, running or cycling through heavy traffic (I like to live dangerously) where you don't want the bulk of a phone bouncing around on you.

I've not heard the EarStudio device (sorry, I think I misspelled it before), but I've heard the Bluewave and A&K devices and they both have fairly nasty hiss with sensitive IEMs. The M0 has the same black background as the V30.

 

[monsieurfromag3]

Interesting - what's the Earstudio like for a noise floor with sensitive IEMs? The M0 has the same DAC chip as the V30, and its sound quality is very close - mainly differing (I suspect) by the implemented filters. A couple of us (including me) marginally prefer the SQ of the M0, but at least one person has said they prefer that of the V30 (with Andromedas). The main point is, it's close to the V30 for SQ, and has a similarly silent noise floor. And it's also a DAP. And $1 cheaper than an Earstudio

Wanted to get back to you on the ES100, but it took me a couple of days to find the right opportunity to test how silent it is. And the answer is: pretty damn silent! In a modern elevator with the Nuforce HEM8 (imp 32 Ohms, sens 124 dB), or at my desk with the Final Audio Pandora VI (imp 8 Ohms, sens 105 dB), it's as black as I can discern.
The A&K XB10 is known to hiss, and Bluewave actually sell an impedance adapter to reduce the hiss with sensitive iems. By contrast Radsone's device has a huge attenuation capacity, on a linear scale that you control from the app.
SQ really scales up the better the gear you throw at it - it's the best sign as to a source's capability, obviously.

That Shanling thing looks very interesting indeed, almost to the point where I'd consider it in addition to the ES100. But there's too much of an overlap in format to justify that. Besides, I feel like the ES100 has its function down pat. No screen, no storage, nothing that kills battery life, but as much good audio hardware as you can cram in a tiny, feather-light enclosure. It depends entirely on LG's well-honed Android skin, Tidal's or Qobuz' or whatever player's UI, and Earsone has released an impeccable, constantly evolving and pretty powerful app, with EQ and many settings that you control from a large, nice telephone screen. For me it's hands down a better way of interfacing with the device than any Chinese UI such as Fiio, Shanling and others keep pushing, even if I'm aware they keep improving the friendliness for Western audiences.

As to "true wireless" iems, they're a great promise not yet fulfilled.
But I disagree with your assessment of BT sound. Meters' M-Ear, the Nuraphone, the Audio-Technica DSR9BT, heck even my Nuforce BE6i for the gym all beat a lot of comparably-priced wired equipment.

 

[csglinux]

Wanted to get back to you on the ES100, but it took me a couple of days to find the right opportunity to test how silent it is. And the answer is: pretty damn silent! In a modern elevator with the Nuforce HEM8 (imp 32 Ohms, sens 124 dB), or at my desk with the Final Audio Pandora VI (imp 8 Ohms, sens 105 dB), it's as black as I can discern.
The A&K XB10 is known to hiss, and Bluewave actually sell an impedance adapter to reduce the hiss with sensitive iems. By contrast Radsone's device has a huge attenuation capacity, on a linear scale that you control from the app.
SQ really scales up the better the gear you throw at it - it's the best sign as to a source's capability, obviously.

That Shanling thing looks very interesting indeed, almost to the point where I'd consider it in addition to the ES100. But there's too much of an overlap in format to justify that. Besides, I feel like the ES100 has its function down pat. No screen, no storage, nothing that kills battery life, but as much good audio hardware as you can cram in a tiny, feather-light enclosure. It depends entirely on LG's well-honed Android skin, Tidal's or Qobuz' or whatever player's UI, and Earsone has released an impeccable, constantly evolving and pretty powerful app, with EQ and many settings that you control from a large, nice telephone screen. For me it's hands down a better way of interfacing with the device than any Chinese UI such as Fiio, Shanling and others keep pushing, even if I'm aware they keep improving the friendliness for Western audiences.

As to "true wireless" iems, they're a great promise not yet fulfilled.
But I disagree with your assessment of BT sound. Meters' M-Ear, the Nuraphone, the Audio-Technica DSR9BT, heck even my Nuforce BE6i for the gym all beat a lot of comparably-priced wired equipment.

I've heard the DSR9BT and thought it was a disaster. I'd love to try out those Nuraphones though!

BTW, I like the form factor and built-in clip on that ES100, but even if you ignore the lack of DAP features (which you might regard as a positive?), it seems the ES100 doesn't support LDAC. I've been quite impressed with LDAC receive on the M0 and don't think I'd want to go back to AptX (even HD).

 

[csglinux]

I hope I don't come across sounding like a shill for Shanling. I'm just really impressed with the M0.

The V30 already has great sound why add the extra complication of adding an extra device -> existing headphone wire -> headphone?

Another possible reason... When using the LG music player or the native Tidal app playing non-MQA tracks, plug into the M0 and connect via LDAC. No more re-sampling artifacts

 

[monsieurfromag3]

I hope I don't come across sounding like a shill for Shanling.

SHILL ALERT! No seriously, it sounds like an awesome device - the ESS 9218 conversion and amplification chops, rolled into an ultra-portable form factor with DAP functionality and LDAC Bluetooth? Pleeeease.

I've heard the DSR9BT and thought it was a disaster. I'd love to try out those Nuraphones though!

BTW, I like the form factor and built-in clip on that ES100, but even if you ignore the lack of DAP features (which you might regard as a positive?), it seems the ES100 doesn't support LDAC. I've been quite impressed with LDAC receive on the M0 and don't think I'd want to go back to AptX (even HD).

From what I can parse on the ES100 Head-fi thread, LDAC support is about to be added; the resident Radsone rep is offering a “can’t comment, can’t deny” nudge on the subject and announcing a huge update that he hopes will make users very happy, so I have good hope. I’m eager to try out LDAC indeed, although aptX HD is probably more stable owing to its lower bandwidth. I’m wondering how we will be able to discriminate between aptX HD and LDAC from the V30’s BT menu though, since it only toggles between most stable and best quality it will probably jump straight to LDAC when the receiver has it.

In your experience how stable is LDAC? Have you used it on the go with good results?

As to the DSR9BT, may I inquire what source you tried them with?
The wireless technology they use has the peculiarity of making the BT source matter as much as with wired headphones. Where AAC vs aptX makes a negligible difference, in this instance SQ improved tenfold when fed signal from my Pioneer DAP instead of my wife’s iPod (a finding confirmed by my wife’s fine, no-nonsense ear). I’ll add the DSR7BT sound quite plain; and the DSR9BT themselves are ridiculously overpriced in regard to the materials used. They look and feel like a basic plastic toy. Audio-Technica are inconsequent like that.

Lastly, the Nuraphone... ah... A rep from Klipsch recommended I audition them at the recent French Sound Days (our Can Jams). He told me they didn’t sound like $400 headphones. And boy don’t they. They are a brutal slap in the face next to all of the $1500 to $4000 cans I auditioned, a plea for getting familiar with your own hearing and finely EQ’ing the gear you already like in the first place. It’s just that: EQ with a sense of how you perceive sound, and it made Hifiman’s $50K Shangri-La sound barely adequate. Blindfolded, I don’t know which one I would prefer - I suspect the Nuraphone, although both were auditioned in perfectly controlled environments.
That being said, they too are quite ugly, feel cheap, and the in-ear part sticking from inside the headphones’ cup feel like a protoype and look gross. Reminded me of the mini-Alien at the end of an Alien’s tongue.
But they’ve wreaked havoc on my perception of value ever since. The only headphones that managed to impress slightly were the Hifiman Susvara, a $6K open-back pair so hungry for power it took an enormous Viva amp to make them come alive.

 

[csglinux]

From what I can parse on the ES100 Head-fi thread, LDAC support is about to be added; the resident Radsone rep is offering a “can’t comment, can’t deny” nudge on the subject and announcing a huge update that he hopes will make users very happy, so I have good hope. I’m eager to try out LDAC indeed, although aptX HD is probably more stable owing to its lower bandwidth. I’m wondering how we will be able to discriminate between aptX HD and LDAC from the V30’s BT menu though, since it only toggles between most stable and best quality it will probably jump straight to LDAC when the receiver has it.

In your experience how stable is LDAC? Have you used it on the go with good results?

As to the DSR9BT, may I inquire what source you tried them with?
The wireless technology they use has the peculiarity of making the BT source matter as much as with wired headphones. Where AAC vs aptX makes a negligible difference, in this instance SQ improved tenfold when fed signal from my Pioneer DAP instead of my wife’s iPod (a finding confirmed by my wife’s fine, no-nonsense ear). I’ll add the DSR7BT sound quite plain; and the DSR9BT themselves are ridiculously overpriced in regard to the materials used. They look and feel like a basic plastic toy. Audio-Technica are inconsequent like that.

Lastly, the Nuraphone... ah... A rep from Klipsch recommended I audition them at the recent French Sound Days (our Can Jams). He told me they didn’t sound like $400 headphones. And boy don’t they. They are a brutal slap in the face next to all of the $1500 to $4000 cans I auditioned, a plea for getting familiar with your own hearing and finely EQ’ing the gear you already like in the first place. It’s just that: EQ with a sense of how you perceive sound, and it made Hifiman’s $50K Shangri-La sound barely adequate. Blindfolded, I don’t know which one I would prefer - I suspect the Nuraphone, although both were auditioned in perfectly controlled environments.
That being said, they too are quite ugly, feel cheap, and the in-ear part sticking from inside the headphones’ cup feel like a protoype and look gross. Reminded me of the mini-Alien at the end of an Alien’s tongue.
But they’ve wreaked havoc on my perception of value ever since. The only headphones that managed to impress slightly were the Hifiman Susvara, a $6K open-back pair so hungry for power it took an enormous Viva amp to make them come alive.

Wow, that's some endorsement for the Nuraphones! I've had my eye on those for a while - I love the idea of the otoacoustic test for the personalized audiograms. Really ingenious. And everybody I've heard that's used them says you can absolutely tell the difference when using your friends' audio profile instead of your own. I have to hear a pair of these

As for the DSR9BT, I was equally fascinated by their tech claim (that it contains no DAC). I spent an afternoon chatting with three engineers from Audio-Technica, but ultimately they couldn't tell me much. Apparently the tech is licensed (I believe from an Israeli company) and the A-T folks actually didn't have too much detail about how it worked. But of course it contains a DAC. Duh. What they mean is, it just doesn't contain a standard DAC, but that doesn't have the same marketing ring. I was using my V30, which was running Oreo at the time. I'm not really that savvy about Bluetooth, so I can't tell you if that's a great source or not, but for sure your wife's iPod would not have been a good source as iPods support no BT codecs beyond AAC. Most of the time my log files report "Best sound quality" as AptX HD, which is what I used. In my experience, "Most stable" usually drops back to SBC. And that, unfortunately, is all the information you get from the V30 BT menu. The "Best sound quality" when paired with the M0 is LDAC and the "Most stable" is AAC. But I've only ever used LDAC and I've found it to be perfectly stable - actually, wayyyyyyy more stable than any connection I've ever had from my Bose Soundsport Free BT headphones (which don't even support AptX). But LDAC itself has various levels of bandwidth which, in theory, can be constantly varying depending on signal quality, so you can never be 100% sure what's going on.

Interesting comment about the "no comment" from the Radsone rep on the possibility of LDAC in the ES100. Apparently Sony imposes some kind of black-out until licensing is confirmed. HiBy are saying the exact same thing ("no comment") about the possibility of LDAC in their R3. Although, they'd earlier said on their Kickstarter page that it was "under certification". (But offline Tidal was also "under certification" and now they've admitted it will never happen, so, who knows about LDAC...) So "no comment" could also be a carrot on the end of a stick to push more sales with the promise of future vaporware I was rather disappointed with HiBy's R3 and sold mine the day I received it. Bait & switch, IMHO.

 

[subguy812]

I hope I don't come across sounding like a shill for Shanling. I'm just really impressed with the M0.



Another possible reason... When using the LG music player or the native Tidal app playing non-MQA tracks, plug into the M0 and connect via LDAC. No more re-sampling artifacts

I have reviewed two other Shanling models and I enjoy their stuff immensly. Hopefully when my review queue lightens up a bit I will review M0 as well. Unfortunately, I had to pass on it at this time.

 

[435279]

I’m wondering how we will be able to discriminate between aptX HD and LDAC from the V30’s BT menu though, since it only toggles between most stable and best quality it will probably jump straight to LDAC when the receiver has it.

Enable Developer options and its in there. You can pick from several different Bluetooth audio options including CODEC used.

 

[monsieurfromag3]

Enable Developer options and its in there. You can pick from several different Bluetooth audio options including CODEC used.

Thanks for the tip! I have no idea where that is though, I’ve been combing through the settings to no avail.

 

[435279]

Thanks for the tip! I have no idea where that is though, I’ve been combing through the settings to no avail.

No problem, developer options are hidden by default, here is the process to enable the menu.

How to enable Developer options in Android

• If using stock Android, go to Settings > About phone > Build number. On a Samsung Galaxy device, go to Settings > About device > Build number. ...
• Tap Build number seven times. ...
• Go back to Settings, where you'll find a Developer options entry in the menu.

The instructions are not specific to the Samsung Galaxy its the same for the V30.

 

[monsieurfromag3]

No problem, developer options are hidden by default, here is the process to enable the menu.

How to enable Developer options in Android

• If using stock Android, go to Settings > About phone > Build number. On a Samsung Galaxy device, go to Settings > About device > Build number. ...
• Tap Build number seven times. ...
• Go back to Settings, where you'll find a Developer options entry in the menu.

The instructions are not specific to the Samsung Galaxy its the same for the V30.

Awesome! Very useful unlock, thanks.

 

[kissmevn]

Just want share my experience with neutron and chord hugo. By activating the direct usb mode. I achieved 2 things, first the dsd actually make the Hugo show white color(native dsd, UAPP can't). Secondly, the sound became much more clearer, detail, dynamic, ss, image much improved . It's like a different đac/amp. I guess neutron provided a near perfect signal to the picky Hugo

 

[csglinux]

Just want share my experience with neutron and chord hugo. By activating the direct usb mode. I achieved 2 things, first the dsd actually make the Hugo show white color(native dsd, UAPP can't). Secondly, the sound became much more clearer, detail, dynamic, ss, image much improved . It's like a different đac/amp. I guess neutron provided a near perfect signal to the picky Hugo

Thanks for the useful feedback! I'm finding the same problems with UAPP (only able to natively export DSD64 over USB). I'm also not having as much luck as you with Neutron. I think UAPP keeps grabbing the interface. Do you have both apps installed? If so, can you list all your settings for Neutron?