[Yoga]

  Did not have M10 at that time.

The new Waveform uses FPGA - looks like a bit of a beast.
 
Any DAC reviews on the horizon from you? :¬)

 

[dan.gheorghe]

 
The new Waveform uses FPGA - looks like a bit of a beast.
 
Any DAC reviews on the horizon from you? :¬)

I  do hope I get one for review soon  , at least that is what Rockna told me.

 

[Yoga]

  I  do hope I get one for review soon  , at least that is what Rockna told me.

Nice!

 

[isquirrel]

Well its all confirmed so can post the news here finally.  

 
Have on the way by the end of November a MSB Select II DAC, with the Femto 33 clock and 2 power bases, one for analogue and one for digital. DAC will be in all Black. Will have an Analog DAC here also with its power base and the Quad USB input so will post comparisons soon, will also update on on how they sound vs the Nagra etc. 
 
MSB have confirmed I will be able to run headphones direct off the outputs. Have ordered both RCA's and XLR as the output impedance differs.
 
Output Levels 
Balanced Outputs 14 Volts PP (5.24 V RMS) at a volume of 100. Impedance is 75 ohms 
Single Ended Outputs 7 Volts PP (2.62 V RMS) at a volume of 100. Impedance is 38 ohms.
 

 

[romaz]

  Well its all confirmed so can post the news here finally.  

 
Have on the way by the end of November a MSB Select II DAC, with the Femto 33 clock and 2 power bases, one for analogue and one for digital. DAC will be in all Black. Will have an Analog DAC here also with its power base and the Quad USB input so will post comparisons soon, will also update on on how they sound vs the Nagra etc. 
 
MSB have confirmed I will be able to run headphones direct off the outputs. Have ordered both RCA's and XLR as the output impedance differs.
 
Output Levels 
Balanced Outputs 14 Volts PP (5.24 V RMS) at a volume of 100. Impedance is 75 ohms 
Single Ended Outputs 7 Volts PP (2.62 V RMS) at a volume of 100. Impedance is 38 ohms.
 

 
I cannot think of a more ultimate headphone setup than this!

 

[Icenine2]

I have to believe this is going to be the ultimate rig in the world.

 

[isquirrel]

Roy, what is your take on running headphones direct out of the MSB? Would you have enough current and what about impedance etc?

 

[romaz]

 
Roy, what is your take on running headphones direct out of the MSB? Would you have enough current and what about impedance etc?

It should work well but better with some headphones than others.   Since you're using the signal output to drive the headphone rather than to feed a preamp or amp, you have to look at it differently, like an amp driving speakers and so you have to ignore that 1:10 rule.  In the case of driving headphones directly, you want the output impedance of the DAC to match the input impedance of the headphone as closely as possible (1:1).  If you think about your speaker amp (usually 8 ohms), you'd want 8 ohm speakers because the speakers derive maximum current without unduly taxing the amp.   


If the input impedance of the headphone is higher than the output impedance of the DAC, that's ok from the standpoint of the DAC and in fact, this results in the DAC seeing an easier load to drive and can sometimes result in better headroom.  From the standpoint of the headphone, it ends up seeing less current but if that headphone has high enough sensitivity, it may not matter.  With a very high impedance headphone like an HD800, these headphones don't really care about current as much as they do voltage.  These types of headphones usually do well here also.


 Now if the input impedance of the headphone is lower than the output impedance of the DAC, for some DACs this can be a problem.  For tube DACs like a Nagra HD for example, you'll blow the tubes because it's just too tough of a load to drive.  Imagine attaching 2-ohm speakers to your 8-ohm amp and you'll get a better picture of what's going on.  Now for a solid state DAC like the MSBs, you won't be blowing tubes but your DAC will probably run hot, your music probably won't sound relaxed and you probably won't have much dynamic headroom.  I've never heard of a DAC clipping before but maybe you could be the first to clip a Select DAC.  Try explaining that one to MSB.
 
With your Select DAC II, you will want to use the balanced outputs only and so this feature really isn't applicable for the MSB Analog.  So at an output impedance of 75 ohms, you wouldn't want to use an EnigmaAcoustics Dharma for example, with its 26 ohm input impedance.  Your HE-1000 with its impedance of only 34 ohms or Abyss at 46 ohms won't be ideal either.  I don't know of any headphones with a 75 ohm input impedance although something like the LCD-4 could work very well.  Input impedance of 100 ohms with a high sensitivity of 100dB/mW.  Obviously, something like an HD800 should work fine.

 Now there are ways to remedy this.  You could purchase a toroidal autoformer to connect between your DAC and headphone (http://www.zeroimpedance.com/).  These are devices that increase impedance and they're used for speakers but I suppose you could adapt them to headphones.  

 Why this whole concept works well for something like the TotalDac is because the TotalDac monobloc, for example, has an output impedance of only about 18 ohms.  It can drive just about any headphone safely.

 

[Pale Rider]

 
 

  Roy, what is your take on running headphones direct out of the MSB? Would you have enough current and what about impedance etc?

It should work well but better with some headphones than others.   Since you're using the signal output to drive the headphone rather than to feed a preamp or amp, you have to look at it differently, like an amp driving speakers and so you have to ignore that 1:10 rule.  In the case of driving headphones directly, you want the output impedance of the DAC to match the input impedance of the headphone as closely as possible (1:1).  If you think about your speaker amp (usually 8 ohms), you'd want 8 ohm speakers because the speakers derive maximum current without unduly taxing the amp.     


If the input impedance of the headphone is higher than the output impedance of the DAC, that's ok from the standpoint of the DAC and in fact, this results in the DAC seeing an easier load to drive and can sometimes result in better headroom.  From the standpoint of the headphone, it ends up seeing less current but if that headphone has high enough sensitivity, it may not matter.  With a very high impedance headphone like an HD800, these headphones don't really care about current as much as they do voltage.  These types of headphones usually do well here also.  
   Now if the input impedance of the headphone is lower than the output impedance of the DAC, for some DACs this can be a problem.  For tube DACs like a Nagra HD for example, you'll blow the tubes because it's just too tough of a load to drive.  Imagine attaching 2-ohm speakers to your 8-ohm amp and you'll get a better picture of what's going on.  Now for a solid state DAC like the MSBs, you won't be blowing tubes but your DAC will probably run hot, your music probably won't sound relaxed and you probably won't have much dynamic headroom.  I've never heard of a DAC clipping before but maybe you could be the first to clip a Select DAC.  Try explaining that one to MSB.
 
With your Select DAC II, you will want to use the balanced outputs only and so this feature really isn't applicable for the MSB Analog.  So at an output impedance of 75 ohms, you wouldn't want to use an EnigmaAcoustics Dharma for example, with its 26 ohm input impedance.  Your HE-1000 with its impedance of only 34 ohms or Abyss at 46 ohms won't be ideal either.  I don't know of any headphones with a 75 ohm input impedance although something like the LCD-4 could work very well.  Input impedance of 100 ohms with a high sensitivity of 100dB/mW.  Obviously, something like an HD800 should work fine.
   Now there are ways to remedy this.  You could purchase a toroidal autoformer to connect between your DAC and headphone (http://www.zeroimpedance.com/).  These are devices that increase impedance and they're used for speakers but I suppose you could adapt them to headphones.  
   Why this whole concept works well for something like the TotalDac is because the TotalDac monobloc, for example, has an output impedance of only about 18 ohms.  It can drive just about any headphone safely.

 

Good info. While i find appealing the idea of driving my non-Stax headphones directly from a DAC, i can envision some difficulty making accurate comparisons. Once my crop of DACs are in the house, I plan to, at least for the trial phase, connect them through a passive pre to the Carbon amp and listen primarily with the 009. I can connect up to 3 at a time this way, and can also output to two of my amps at a time, so could also more readily do an amp/can comparison.

 

[romaz]

  Good info. While i find appealing the idea of driving my non-Stax headphones directly from a DAC, i can envision some difficulty making accurate comparisons. Once my crop of DACs are in the house, I plan to, at least for the trial phase, connect them through a passive pre to the Carbon amp and listen primarily with the 009. I can connect up to 3 at a time this way, and can also output to two of my amps at a time, so could also more readily do an amp/can comparison.

What passive pre do you use?

 

[romaz]

  Well its all confirmed so can post the news here finally.  

 
Have on the way by the end of November a MSB Select II DAC, with the Femto 33 clock and 2 power bases, one for analogue and one for digital. DAC will be in all Black. Will have an Analog DAC here also with its power base and the Quad USB input so will post comparisons soon, will also update on on how they sound vs the Nagra etc. 
 
MSB have confirmed I will be able to run headphones direct off the outputs. Have ordered both RCA's and XLR as the output impedance differs.
 
Output Levels 
Balanced Outputs 14 Volts PP (5.24 V RMS) at a volume of 100. Impedance is 75 ohms 
Single Ended Outputs 7 Volts PP (2.62 V RMS) at a volume of 100. Impedance is 38 ohms.
 

Any more photos?  Would love to see under the hood.  MSB has the tidiest internals.  I hear they also make everything in house, resistors, clocks, power supplies, everything.  Do you know if that's true?

 

[Greg121986]

I listened to the Select DAC at its debut in Royal Oak, MI at David Michael Audio. It is remarkable. What they were able to get out of a 16/44.1 recording is mind blowing. 

 

[isquirrel]

  Any more photos?  Would love to see under the hood.  MSB has the tidiest internals.  I hear they also make everything in house, resistors, clocks, power supplies, everything.  Do you know if that's true?

Sure I think it is a very interesting company as I understand they design and build and everything themselves, they do a lot of OEM work and for example this is where Light Harmonic are getting their clocks from for the new SIRE DAC.
 
Internal board layout:
 
First time I have seen pretty much any high end DAC with what appears to be no internal wiring, MSB's philosophy is that it is more susceptible to picking up and transmitting the high frequency noise inside of the DAC. This board is shown with the Galaxy Clock which comes as standard, its interesting to have a discussion about clocks and how they affect a DAC's performance. I suggest we go through the various areas of performance and I will attempt to offer an explanation of the technology and what its purpose is. I have asked Vince, their National Sales Manager to chime in where necessary. So feel free to ask any questions you wish.
 


The board is designed to allow seamless plug and play of different modules, so for example you could decide that you wanted to add the Network Renderer later on and so when the time came you would power the DAC down, press down on the retaining lip of the vacant or otherwise module and slide it out, slide the new board in, power the DAC up which automatically configures itself for the latest board including all of the display options available. This really future proofs the DAC as much as possible. I should mention that within the Select II DAC's pricey get a 10 year upgrade guarantee. This is how it works borrowed from MSB.
 
 

The SELECT Program

The SELECT DAC is MSB's reference DAC for the future. It is all new and promises great potential for continued development and improvements. Right out of the box it exceeds dramatically all we have done to date, and it is still new and developing. But don't worry, you can upgrade as often as you want, so you will never be left behind. The SELECT model comes with a 10 year warranty and upgrade guarantee so as we make improvements, you can return your DAC and get the latest performance without having to worry about selling the old model and buying the new one. These upgrades are simply the difference in cost between what you paid for your DAC and the current SELECT DAC for the remaining years. Guaranteed, no questions asked. Upgrade as often as you like.

The other area we addressed with the new chassis was the sensitivity of the previous SELECT to environment. We attacked this problem at many levels and feel we have made great progress, and that we can expect excellent results in a wide range of listening environments.

 

[romaz]

 
Sure I think it is a very interesting company as I understand they design and build and everything themselves, they do a lot of OEM work and for example this is where Light Harmonic are getting their clocks from for the new SIRE DAC.
 
Internal board layout:
 
First time I have seen pretty much any high end DAC with what appears to be no internal wiring, MSB's philosophy is that it is more susceptible to picking up and transmitting the high frequency noise inside of the DAC. This board is shown with the Galaxy Clock which comes as standard, its interesting to have a discussion about clocks and how they affect a DAC's performance. I suggest we go through the various areas of performance and I will attempt to offer an explanation of the technology and what its purpose is. I have asked Vince, their National Sales Manager to chime in where necessary. So feel free to ask any questions you wish.
 

 

 
This photo suggests dual AES/EBU inputs, L+R.  I think DCS does this also.  Is this one of the standard modules?  Also, with their I2S inputs, is this proprietary to their own transports or will it work with others, like the Audio-gd converters?

 

[isquirrel]

   
This photo suggests dual AES/EBU inputs, L+R.  I think DCS does this also.  Is this one of the standard modules?  Also, with their I2S inputs, is this proprietary to their own transports or will it work with others, like the Audio-gd converters?

Good questions, the dual XLR inputs you can see here are analog inputs, this is to allow the DAC to be used a true analog front end, with its own volume control, input selection etc. The AES/EBU input has one input however it also has an external word clock as part of the module, so for example you can use the DAC's clock to sync to a music server etc, it is one way only (output) which makes sense as I can't see any music server or for that matter much else having a clock that would have the same capability as the DAC's. As for a dual AES implementation I have just called Vince for clarification so if I may I will respond when I have the correct information. 
 
MSB believe that their I2S module provides the best possible connection between DAC and transport, its performance far exceeds any other inout option. MSB are on their 2nd iteration of this technology and it it provides much lower jitter and more than double the performance of their own Network Renderer which in turn provides far superior performance than their new Quad Rate USB module. On the USB module for a minute, I queried if the one for the Select was the same as for the Analog DAC and it is not the same, providing a higher level of performance, as one would expect. 
 
When you order the DAC you are presented with a page that allows you to pick and choose your desired configuration. At this stage I have not elected the I2S module. The DAC will have the following inputs and outputs.
 
Inputs:
 
Network Renderer - the software for this has been developed in Australia by a friend of mine in Melbourne
Quad Rate USB
SPDIF which comes with external word clock output and optical. (good for connecting up an AK!) 
 
Outputs:
 
XLR balanced, analog in and out
Single ended RCA, analog in and out
 
Photo of the internal board top down, showing the 8 DAC modules which we can get onto in a minute. I will also post details of the MSB implementation of I2S.