MS-1 vs. SR-60
Jun 2, 2007 at 8:56 PM Post #16 of 137
Quote:

Originally Posted by BrookR1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
If I were to guess...it may be a way to appeal to markets outside the U.S. This is pure speculation, of course. Think about it...Grado headphones are way overpriced overseas. They make a deal with Alessandro who relabels them and sells them to markets overseas. Why Grado doesn't do it directly, I'm not sure. There may be legal aspects we don't see. Import restrictions? Who knows. It could also be that they're trying to target the audio engineer market. Rebranding the same item and targeting towards different audiences. That's the American way...just look at the auto industry. I would love to learn the answer to this question.



well, as I said in my MS-1 appreciation thread (http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=242847) I did "hear for real" any grados yet. I like very much my MS-1, that's for sure - but I dont know for sure if they are similar to SR60 or not!

I asked myself a lot of times if they are that great, what's that price for? - because they even pay you postal order (worldwide!) - i.e. for Portugal they paid ~15$ which make the HP cost 99$-15$!

well, for me, I dont mind - where could I get some Grados for that price?? nowhere, thats for sure!

Here in Portugal some SR60 just cost about 125€ (thats ~ 170$)... ..

So, I dont know yet if they are similar, but what I know is that I love their sound, and I recommend them always!


Cheers!
 
Jun 2, 2007 at 9:28 PM Post #19 of 137
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve999 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I once carefully compared my SR60s with a pair of SR225s for a good long while at a headphone meet. My conclusion, for my own purposes, was that if there was a difference it was not worth a plug nickel.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve999 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Variations within models (one SR60 compared to another) may well be greater than the average difference between different models (SR60 vs. SR225).


that's very interesting indeed.

i would like to hear more on this. a sr60 vs. upper grados.
 
Jun 2, 2007 at 9:50 PM Post #20 of 137
Jun 2, 2007 at 10:07 PM Post #22 of 137
Well now; if the SR-60 and MS-1 sound exactly alike; I wonder if my MS2i sounds just like SR-325i!

I wonder.

Anybody?

And the RS-1 and MS-Pro?

Are the Alessandros nothing other than Grado knock-offs missing only their fancy bellybuttons?
 
Jun 2, 2007 at 10:55 PM Post #23 of 137
Quote:

Originally Posted by manhattanproj /img/forum/go_quote.gif
that's very interesting indeed.

i would like to hear more on this. a sr60 vs. upper grados.



Very soon, I'll be able to compare MS-1 to SR325

So, if you interested I'll let you know my findings
 
Jun 2, 2007 at 11:36 PM Post #25 of 137
Quote:

Originally Posted by F107plus5 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The RS-1 and MS-Pro?


That's another very good point if they do or do not sound similar. There's a bunch of threads discussing their differences ...
 
Jun 3, 2007 at 12:03 AM Post #26 of 137
Quote:

Originally Posted by MaZa /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Graphs of SR60
http://www.geocities.jp/ryumatsuba/sr-60_f.gif

Graphs of MS1
http://www.geocities.jp/ryumatsuba/musicseriesone.html


They definetly shouldnt be exactly same, but they DO come from same family. They are Grados afterall.



Well, after looking at those curves (assuming they are right) I have to ask what was your gear powering them and with what tracks did you test them, because those curves seem quite different!!


Cheers


EDIT: Thanks MaZa for those curves info!
 
Jun 3, 2007 at 12:23 AM Post #27 of 137
Shame on all of you! A couple of comments:

What was the setup? Unamped out of a cassette player? FLAC > iMod > SR-71? What kind of music? Drum n bass? Well recorded violin duets?

Anyway, decide for yourself. Forgive me if I don't find the initial post convincing, at all.

Irrespective of all of that, n = 1!


Having said all of that, it would be *all* that surprising, but I presume that the differences are quite subtle.
 
Jun 3, 2007 at 12:37 AM Post #28 of 137
Quote:

Originally Posted by ricmat /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Well, after looking at those curves (assuming they are right) I have to ask what was your gear powering them and with what tracks did you test them, because those curves seem quite different!!


I took it that MaZa was implying that the curves have broad similarities (they do), but have distinctions unique to each model. If I am mistaken then MaZa can correct me.

Because I am currently on vacation (and I love data analysis of this sort), I superimposed the 2 curves and there are indeed differences. Because I am unfamiliar with the rules about posting pictures to the forum without permission from the original picture 'author', I will instead summarize the differences below:

From 20 - 1000Hz: Similar frequency curve pattern, but the SR-60 is ~5dB stronger throughout the range.

From 1000 - 3000Hz: The frequency curve patterns and dB strength are effectively the same, with the MS-1 experiencing a drop in dB and the SR-60 experiencing a rise in dB at ~3000Hz.

From 3000 - 10,000Hz: Aside from the SR-60 peak at ~3000Hz, the MS-1 has a stronger series of frequency peaks (particularly at 4500 & 9000Hz).

From 10,000 - 20,000Hz: Similar frequency patterns and dB strength, except at ~16,000Hz (the log scale is tricky to read here) where the MS-1 is about 5dB stronger.

I have a number of opinions regarding how these comparisons correlate to user observations/opinions, but that is a minefield I am not willing to cross considering the subjective nature of sound perception.

One point of interest is that I compared the frequency curve of the SR-60 provided by MaZa to that at headphone.com. There were notable differences to my eye at frequencies above 4,000Hz. I have no idea what the significance of this is (if any), but there you have it!
icon10.gif


Keep in mind that I am no expert in this area (Biology is my specialty), so forgive me if I have improperly articulated the curve trends.
 
Jun 3, 2007 at 12:38 AM Post #29 of 137
using comfies maybe the differences are less pronounced than if you were to use bowls but my god, they are different headphones. If you are the type of person that say the ms1 and the sr60s are indistinguishable, you are lucky because you might not be able to hear the differences in upper end amps either which makes the subtleties in this hobby unappealing to you.
Personally, I found the senn 595 and 555 closer in sound compared to ms1 against sr60. The senn comparison was more of a difference in dynamics and slight differences in refinement on different frequencies like midbass and upper midrange. The sr60 vs ms1 is different. The bass of the sr60s just has a bounce and punch that the ms1s lack while the ms1s highs cant cut through the comfies enough compared to the sr60s. To me, the ms1s have a more balanced sound but sound more boring at the same time. What I mean by this is that the sr60s sort of cover up for this by bumping up the frequencies that would seem like the headphone is more dynamic and alive instead of really being alive because of its dynamics. If these cans had realistic reproduction of dynamics however, I might prefer the ms1. What I'm getting at is if the higher end alessandro like the ms2i is a more neutral version of the 325s for example while getting more dynamics from the ms1 then we would have a better can than an "sr60 balanced" headphone with increased dynamics since we wouldn't need the artificially boosted frequencies anymore to cover up for the deficiencies in its dynamics. From the comments here on headfi about the 325i, I feel like that is what happened. It is a headphone that is too bright for a lot of people because the faults of its frequency response can jump out at you more than the sr60 because it is a more expensive more dynamic can that needs to be more balanced.
I hope you guys get what I'm saying with my rambling english
biggrin.gif


By the way, these differences that I am describing with these headphones are all from using them with portable sources... Ipod, Zen, Laptop. With an amp, The differences in dynamics increased with the senns but I wasn't able to compare the two grados with an amp cause i was ampless at the time i had them both at the same time. Oh, and you might take my ms1 vs sr60 comparison with a grain of salt because I had two sr60s that didn't sound exactly identical to each other either
biggrin.gif
 
Jun 3, 2007 at 12:47 AM Post #30 of 137
Here's another theory I conjured up...and it has nothing to do with making a headphone that sounds different. Rather...from a marketing and profits perspective.

OK...let's just say that Grado has relationships with its distributors...all distributors worldwide for their headphones. In this contract they agree not to sell the SR-60s directly. If they do this, they violate the distribution agreement. Meanwhile, their distributors are selling these things for tons of $$$$ overseas. Why? Because they can. Well, because they're so expensive overseas, the demand is lower and the average consumer will choose Sennheiser over a Grado on price alone. Grado can't expand its market overseas because it can't sell directly (or risk violating the agreement...in which case, no distributor will agree to carry ANY Grado). Meanwhile. the distributor is making $$$ hand over fist for every Grado headphone sold. And there's no way they're going to give that up.

Solution?

Grado knows that in order to grow business, they need to penetrate the overseas market. How do they accomplish this? Price...they need to figure out a way to lower the price for buyers overseas. How do they do this? Create a "new" line of headphones and give Alessandro the exclusive rights to sell the "new" line. With just enough tweaks and spec changes to NOT violate their contract with their existing distributors, they are able to sell the same sound (trust me...Grado doesn't want to mess with success here) with minimal changes to its manufacturing processes. They are then able to sell this new line at a higher wholesale price to Alessandro. In return, Alessandro makes a nice sum of money selling headphones that compete directly with Grado's own line of headphones. In this scenario, Grado is able to sell headphones at a higher price to Alessandro and penetrate the overseas market at the same time. Because the price for Grados is now suddenly lower, MS-1s outsell SR-60s by a large margin overseas.

This whole Alessandro/Grado thing has nothing to do with sound...at least when applied to the MS-1s.

Re-read this and tell me if it makes any sense...especially you business people.
 
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