MQA: Revolutionary British streaming technology
Sep 9, 2017 at 1:19 PM Post #1,636 of 1,869
You might be right there. I have a feeling though that MQA is pretty meaningless in its present application. Perhaps they're using audiophiles to provide the seed money to develop the technology for an application where it might actually be useful. I don't know much about the economics of the audio business, but I know enough to have figured out that the money isn't in developing proprietary audio codecs for consumer use, And it REALLY isn't in developing streamable 2 channel audio. That's been done. The money is in developing audio codecs that become industry standards in the film business. He might be throwing up a lot of smoke to draw attention to MQA in the hopes of getting bought out by one of the biggies. That's my guess. Once that happens, MQA 2 channel streaming will go away and all those specialized DACs will become collector's items.

Those words resonate true to me. It's the golden string that leads to the cash. And if that's their market, fine, so be it if the film studios who are all owned by conglomerates pay another conglomerate (or in the case of Warner, pays itself) for a codec that protects their intellectual property. Maybe Bob Stuart should call up Netflix or Amazon and license his tech to them. Formats typically sell themselves to their intended market based on need. But consumers don't need to pay for MQA development with their DACs, music files, players, software, etc. Especially when they're being sold a benefit that doesn't exist, or a mysterious filter that should really just be an optional DSP. This is not a "Hi-Fi revolution against mp3" as they proclaim, that's what FLAC was. If anything, MQA is just a revolution against FLAC. You're right, I can totally see those DACs being collectors items soon.
 
Sep 9, 2017 at 2:01 PM Post #1,638 of 1,869
I think if it succeeds, it will spread in many areas, perhaps including the studio and broadcast. Then this thread can have a really good moan.

I think if it succeeds, I doubt it will even resemble the MQA we're talking about here. I think the present incarnation is just the bobber on the line. The real hook and worm is below the surface. I don't doubt that Meridian has the ability to create something important. I just don't think a proprietary, DRM locked, lossy, 2 channel, streaming format is particularly useful. AAC already does it better than MQA. It's audibly transparent at a remarkably low bitrate, it's not proprietary, it isn't tied down by DRM and it's not limited to just 2 channel audio. The only advantages MQA has over AAC to act as a justification for all that hobbling are charts and diagrams that don't say anything and vague technical explanations that aren't peer reviewed- they aren't even proven in basic controlled listening tests. None of that offers anything of value to the consumer.
 
Last edited:
Sep 9, 2017 at 7:28 PM Post #1,639 of 1,869
You're expressing an opinion of what you believe is possible from what you have experienced and what you have read. My experience is a recording which can not be discerned as being different from original performance on pretty much everything I've produced.

The only way this statement could be true is if every commercial you've made since 1981 only contained a narrator/voice over and nothing else. Have you never made a commercial with say music behind the voice over? How did you record it, did you get a band in the studio, sit the voice actor in front of the band and record the performance or did you just source the music and then mix the VO over the top of it? If it's the latter then there was no original performance, you've manufactured a performance which never existed, from two completely different performances! What about if you had a VO with say the sound of a car driving past in the background, did you take the VO artist to a road to record, with a car driving past at the appropriate time or did you just record the VO artist in a booth, then mix the car passby from say a sound library or other source? Again, if it's the latter, then there was no "original performance" and the same could be said of any other sound FX you've ever used in a commercial in addition to the VO.

G
 
Sep 10, 2017 at 3:34 AM Post #1,642 of 1,869
That's a very big "if", given what it takes for anything to become an industry-accepted norm.

Tangential, but just sharing my own Gerzon story: at lunch I sat across from him as he described at great length to me, as he was prone to do, how Ambisonics had the capability to reproduce the sound of a Guillotine blade sliced downward through your own head. I still remember his glee at this idea. I sort of lost interest in eating lunch.


He was an interesting character. Did you know one of his hobbies was unified theory. After his death, better informed than me in the area said he was making inroads. A "Stephen Hawking" of audio. Why do the brightest get the debilitating illnesses?

Amisonics was smart. He and Craven came up with a great backwards compatable surround system. Pity it didn't take off. I think Meridian were the only company offering decoding for domestic sysytems. Craven had a nice 4 Quad electrostatic system set up for playback I heard.
 
Sep 10, 2017 at 3:45 AM Post #1,643 of 1,869
"Cheap" wins over expensive, and cheap/free wins over cost and quality. If the quality differential is imperceptible, free always wins.

While logical, that is often not true in the market place. If it was luxury goods wouldn't exist. Why do people rate B&O so highly (nothing wrong with it, and very reliable, but hardly good value). People can be suspicious of things that are free.

By the way, as far as the public is concerned, there is no cost-on for MQA so far. Tidal is the same price as lossless, and there isn't a visible cost increase on the playback equipment.
 
Sep 10, 2017 at 4:43 AM Post #1,644 of 1,869
While logical, that is often not true in the market place. If it was luxury goods wouldn't exist. Why do people rate B&O so highly (nothing wrong with it, and very reliable, but hardly good value). People can be suspicious of things that are free.
That might apply to physical goods, but when it comes to the virtual, like music files, free has already won hands down. Sales on download services are leveling as YouTube becomes the most played audio service. And isn't that just the most marvelous quality?
By the way, as far as the public is concerned, there is no cost-on for MQA so far. Tidal is the same price as lossless, and there isn't a visible cost increase on the playback equipment.

I find that statement odd. Every time I raise any objections to MQA I get accused of not owning MQA-enabled hardware. Seems to me you have to buy that stuff, no? So if I had a shiny new DAC that cost me 5K in gold, I'd be looking at an "upgrade" if it wasn't MQA-enabled. Is Tidal free? 'Cuz the only free MQA I've seen is demo files, and I already own originals of my favorites.

Every time a new format is released there's a cost attached. Throw out your VHS tapes and get DVDs. Throw out your DVDs and get HD-DVDs, but then throw them out right away and get Blue-ray. And the player to match each. Thing is, the transition between any of those (except HD-DVD to BD) was clearly visible. You could see what you paid for.

There's an old marketing principle that states that rapid market penetration of a product is only possible when it is a perceived 3-fold+ improvement over the existing product. If you look at what has won in audio, you'll see that's pretty much true. FM didn't win over AM for two decades until it matched it with programming, then the quality and stereo provided the percieved improvement and it took off. CDs won with ease of use, durability and sound quality (plus a few others). DVDs won with size, play time, discrete surround sound, handling, durability, navigation...and so on.

Things that haven't succeeded quite as fast, or well, like 5.1 surround, had negatives that offset the positives (more speakers, more expense, more complexity, etc.)

mp3 won because it was better than cassettes (mostly), and freely distributed (Napster, etc.), at least for a while, and easier to deal with (instant access, playlists, huge libraries in your pocket, no physical media, etc.). Apple built its success by surmounting the negative issues of existing products, offering products with percieved 3 fold+ improvements, and they did it without improving price. (Ok, they've recently collapsed on most of that, bit it worked for quite a while).

There are some product categories that have won the market by becoming the mandatory default in spite of their being terrible solutions, failing to offer 3-fold improvements, and not being cheap/free. HDMI comes to mind first, horrible design, flakey, expensive, and unnecessary (there were already single cable solutions when HDMI arrived). It became mandatory because of studios being touchy about high definition without copy protection. But it wasn't/isn't better, or even particularly good. HD Radio is another. Bad concept, but adopted anyway (and it hasn't won any market). HD-TV, forced change-over by the need for government funding by auctioning spectrum, so mandatory. Better too, but not likely the best solution, and certainly not cheap. For something to become the mandatory default without consumer choice there must be a large industry pressure group or organization with a motive (HDMI Consortium of manufacturers and film companies, NAB for HD Radio, FCC for HD-TV).

So, what's the 3-fold+ improvement of MQA? Sound quality so far is still under debate. Is it easier? No. Is it faster? Less bandwidth than some codecs, more than others, and with bandwidth getting cheaper that's probably not a complete win. Is it cheaper? Not if you need new hardware to get the full benefit. For those reasons I don't think we will see MQA significantly penetrate the market, unless it becomes the mandatory default. Since there's no large industry pressure group with sufficient motive, all we see is a sort of band-wagon approach, which cannot have any long-term impact, that won't likely happen either.

For MQA to succeed it needs to be a major, clearly audible improvement to every listener on devices of any form factor at very least. If that were true, but it required the purchase of new hardware, it could achieve a slow market penetration as we all buy our favorite music for the third of fourth time, and the latest widget to play it on so we get that improvement. But it would have to be unmistakable, not vague, and the difference indisputable (even if you didn't like it).

Frankly, FLAC has a better chance at winning a significant market share. Already has.
 
Last edited:
Sep 10, 2017 at 6:10 AM Post #1,645 of 1,869
The only way this statement could be true is if every commercial you've made since 1981 only contained a narrator/voice over and nothing else. Have you never made a commercial with say music behind the voice over? How did you record it, did you get a band in the studio, sit the voice actor in front of the band and record the performance or did you just source the music and then mix the VO over the top of it? If it's the latter then there was no original performance, you've manufactured a performance which never existed, from two completely different performances! What about if you had a VO with say the sound of a car driving past in the background, did you take the VO artist to a road to record, with a car driving past at the appropriate time or did you just record the VO artist in a booth, then mix the car passby from say a sound library or other source? Again, if it's the latter, then there was no "original performance" and the same could be said of any other sound FX you've ever used in a commercial in addition to the VO.

G
Gobbledygook!
 
Sep 10, 2017 at 7:09 AM Post #1,646 of 1,869
for those who believe in more samples, less ringing, and all the time smearing out of range "important" issues, we should just offer global compatibility for a few other PCM resolutions. like say 14/96 and 13/192. it improves the same kinds of timing stuff as MQA compared to 16/44. discards a few bits the same way, except this time you know how many and you chose. allows for gentle and/or higher band limiting the same way. weights a good deal less than 24/192. and doesn't require massive "unfolding+dither" processing on playback. but most of all, consumers would have means to do the encoding themselves.

to those who think MQA is a good thing, wouldn't that instead really be what you guys are looking for? if not, please explain why and what for you makes MQA better.
 
Last edited:
Sep 10, 2017 at 7:29 AM Post #1,647 of 1,869
24641850610_4da97510b2_z.jpg
for those who believe in more samples, less ringing, and all the time smearing out of range "important" issues, we should just offer global compatibility for a few other PCM resolutions. like say 14/96 and 13/192. it improves the same kinds of timing stuff as MQA compared to 16/44. discards a few bits the same way, except this time you know how many and you chose. allows for gentle and/or higher band limiting the same way. weights a good deal less than 24/192. and doesn't require massive "unfolding+dither" processing on playback. but most of all, consumers would have means to do the encoding themselves.

to those who think MQA is a good thing, wouldn't that instead really be what you guys are looking? if not, please explain why and what for you makes MQA better.
Are you familiar with Double Reed-Solomon Error Correction? This was an early means of PCM error correction. It was a feature on the Sony PCM-7000 Series Digital Audio Recorders. I still have a pair of PCM-7010F's and a digital edit controller, which I purchased for my radio advertising production business back in the mid 1990's. I still use these recorders as, alluded to in an earlier post of mine here on this thread, recordings made on these DAT recorders can not be distinguished from live reinforced sound emanating from the sound booth. What I am getting at here is it seems some folks, not you, but others here are discussing technology for a problem that is largely an imagined problem, one actually solved decades ago with technology like the kind used in the Sony PCM-7000 Series DAT Recorders.
 
Last edited:
Sep 10, 2017 at 8:40 AM Post #1,648 of 1,869
for those who believe in more samples, less ringing, and all the time smearing out of range "important" issues, we should just offer global compatibility for a few other PCM resolutions. like say 14/96 and 13/192. it improves the same kinds of timing stuff as MQA compared to 16/44. discards a few bits the same way, except this time you know how many and you chose. allows for gentle and/or higher band limiting the same way. weights a good deal less than 24/192. and doesn't require massive "unfolding+dither" processing on playback. but most of all, consumers would have means to do the encoding themselves.

to those who think MQA is a good thing, wouldn't that instead really be what you guys are looking? if not, please explain why and what for you makes MQA better.

I like your style. In that I like the way you argue.

However, the "13 bits" is the exagerated minimum for undecoded MQA when it is played as PCM where MQA state 15 bits typical and noise shaped.

Decoded it has far more on average, and my undersatnding is it is more like 23bits in the audable band. Above 24kHz, sure is is less and they are clear about that, as they believe there is lower level content there. Above 48kHz they chose to only be interested in the time domain content so it is not easy to quantify in dynamic rage terms.

Of course with noise shaping in the statements, it is not clear if these bit depths are the maximum, minimum, average or before noise shaping. However nobody is saying MQA is 13 bit AND 96kHz.
 
Sep 10, 2017 at 8:51 AM Post #1,649 of 1,869
oh, I picked 13 or 14bits to be less than the existing 16(save some space), but enough to most of the time not result in audible noise floor. I wasn't thinking that it was MQA's bit depth at all.
for that specifically it seems to be a variable setting to accommodate the desired final resolution and maybe the ultrasonic signal content if there is a lot of it. to actually reach something like 13bit would occur when making a MQA file into a 16/48 container probably. but anything into a 24bit container should have more even in worst case scenarios, and probably be around 18bit in general if we trust the patent.
 
Sep 10, 2017 at 10:11 AM Post #1,650 of 1,869
OK. The MQA claim is it has better timing resolving power than 192kHz between events, and we know that actual timing of an event, the resolution comes from bit depth. So while your new standard of losslees will give good results, MQA claim they can do better. At least in what they say matters.

So you were doing a kind of MQA "lite"?
 
Last edited:

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top