[robm321]

I think some of this gets into technical proficiency versus musicality and phrasing.  Peart has some of the best proficiency and technicality in Rock and he's more than musical enough for me.  Bonham had some of the most capable and effortless hands of any drummer I've ever seen.  Supposedly from his years of laying bricks.  A prime of example of technicality over musicality is Mike Mangini.
 
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=mangini+world+record&oq=mangini+world+record&aq=f&aqi=g1g-m1&aql=&gs_nf=1&gs_l=youtube.3..0j0i5.185615.190105.0.190216.20.20.0.0.0.0.136.2048.11j9.20.0.
 
I believe he has more drummer related world records than anyone else but seeing him debut w/ Dream theater was disappointing to say the least.  Talk about boring and sterile.  I'll take Mike Portnoy or James 'The Rev' Sullivan (now deceased) anyday.  
 

I heard from a friend of mine who is a hardcore DT fan that they wrote the drum tracks for Mike Mangini. If that's true, it's hard to judge someone who is boxed in like that.

 

[manveru]

 
Quote:

I still think you are taking a biased view of apples versus oranges.  This is just a case of 'I like the HD650 more than the HD800 so it's a better headphone' syndrome.  I also don't see how technical precision and speed is just a trick for trained monkeys and musical phrasing is some mysterious supernatural talent that can't be learned.  That's a rather silly characterization.  Maybe changing the thread title to 'Worlds Best Drummers' would do better to reframe your argument and introduce a different perspective. 

 
Well of course it's biased. I never tried to deny that. My views can only be based off of my own personal preferences and experiences, as are anyone else's. I'm not trying to tell people they're wrong, just tried to start a little conversation on a topic that was on my mind at the time. I like hearing about other peoples' thoughts, but there's no need to turn it into some sort of argument or battle.
 
As to the musical phrasing thing, it's not supernatural. I don't think creative people are "just born that way." Perhaps they are born with some sort of predisposition, but it still requires life experiences to become who they are of course. However, you can't just learn how to be that way on your own by reading a book or practicing rudiments all day. I've known plenty of technically proficient people throughout my life who were examples of this.
 
In the end, while technical precision and speed is tasteless and unimpressive to me, if you enjoy and appreciate it, that's great. Happy listening! I've known other people like that as well. Maybe you think some drummers that I would like are overrated, and that's what the original topic of this thread was.

 

[Anaxilus]

 
Quote:
 
My point is the same as yours.  The difference is using the term 'overrated' means you are passing judgement on X > Y.  If you aren't looking for debate and only want to discuss types of drumming then don't frame it as an argument to begin with.  

  But whatever, lets keep the good music coming.
 
Interesting that they wrote Mangini's tracks as Portnoy did his own.  Maybe he just needs to settle in and let loose.

 

[robm321]

I think Portnoy was getting too obnoxious anyway. Not that he's not a great drummer, but he was a bit overbearing at least for my preference. I actually like the change even though I'm not a big DT fan to begin with.

 

[SteveA]

[size=medium]I’ve enjoyed this thread so far.  The topic has been thought provoking to me: it has made me reexamine my personal biases and pause to consider why I like certain drummers better than others.[/size]
 
[size=medium]And manveru, I may respectfully disagree with you about creative people not being “just born that way” because at least in my field of mechanical design engineering I believe they are.  I’ve seen too many brilliant PhD-level engineers run for cover when I’d throw a clean sheet of paper in front of them and challenge them to design something new.  They know all the theory, passed all the tests, have hundreds of equations memorized, but cannot CREATE.  Many are great at analyzing, testing, and evolving other’s creative output but struggle to develop their own original ideas.  I cannot say conclusively these same observations apply to musicians but I sense they do.[/size]
 
[size=medium]I enjoy watching and listening to groups with two drummers, or at least the groups that do it well and the drummers’ styles are complementary.  Last fall, we went to see The Stick Men and Adrian Belew’s Power Trio share the stage at a local club.  At intermission, I was fortunate to have an opportunity to speak with Pat (aka P@) Mastelotto for a few minutes.  I have always enjoyed his work with King Crimson both paired with Bill Bruford and by himself.  He told me to watch drummer Tobias Ralph in Adrian’s group, saying excitedly “This guy is really talented”.  And P@ was absolutely correct: Tobias was terrific but in a way totally different from P@ play.  Watching P@ play is like watching Animal in the Muppet Show pit band.  Arms and sticks are going everywhere while these great polyrhythms and sounds erupt from his set.  He is a big hitter and his every expression telegraphs how much fun he is having.  Tobias is all about economy of motion and absolute technical mastery and stick control.  We enjoyed his set very much too.  The best part though was when both bands merged at the end to play Crim music.  The interplay between these two was mind-boggling.  They obviously have great respect for each other and have carved out a great middle ground to play together.[/size]
 
[size=medium]Apples and oranges maybe, but tasty regardless![/size]

 

[manveru]

 
Quote:

My point is the same as yours.  The difference is using the term 'overrated' means you are passing judgement on X > Y.  If you aren't looking for debate and only want to discuss types of drumming then don't frame it as an argument to begin with.  

  But whatever, lets keep the good music coming.

 
Well, I wasn't really trying to pass judgement in the sense that I went in with the understanding that different people have different standards and values for making such calls, but yeah I see your point. You may be right. I was trying not to rehash the same old "who's your favorite drummer" thread that's already been done several times before. Oh well, I guess it kind of worked more or less. 

 
Quote:

I think Portnoy was getting too obnoxious anyway. Not that he's not a great drummer, but he was a bit overbearing at least for my preference. I actually like the change even though I'm not a big DT fan to begin with.

 
Yeah, he can be a bit much sometimes maybe, but I don't mind him overall. Not huge on DT either, but I like him in Liquid Tension Experiment and Transatlantic more.

 

[eric0531]

 
Quote:

Neil Peart and Bonham are among the best "rock" drummers. There's no disputing that.
 
 

 
Well, given that "best" is a completely subjective term, I'd say of course people can dispute that

 

[manveru]

 
Quote:
 
I guess that's what I meant by predisposition, and then there's those people who have a predisposition in the opposite direction that perhaps makes it harder for them to think a certain way. I'm not sure what the word for that might be. All I mean is, I don't think those predispositions alone make that person the way they are. If they had grown up in a different home or another part of the world, or were exposed to different music, or anything that could happen in life, they might have turned out to be a different person. But yeah, it does come easier to some people. A long time ago when I used to take lessons, I would barely practice at home if at all, yet every week I still improved. In the long run, the people who did practice constantly are generally more skilled than me, but it's okay because I'm still having fun
 
Btw, that concert sounds pretty awesome!

 

[SteveA]

Manveru - Thanks for expanding on your perspective: I agree totally. Keep playong and having fun my friend. Thiis same joined group is opening for Dream Theater this summer. IMO, it should be the other way around. It WAS an awesome concert. If you would like to play with this group, join us at camp this summer in the Catskills. Check out Three of a Perfect Pair camp.

 

[manveru]

 
Quote:

Manveru - Thanks for expanding on your perspective: I agree totally. Keep playong and having fun my friend. Thiis same joined group is opening for Dream Theater this summer. IMO, it should be the other way around. It WAS an awesome concert. If you would like to play with this group, join us at camp this summer in the Catskills. Check out Three of a Perfect Pair camp.

 
Looks like a lot of fun I'm sure, but unfortunately I don't have money. 

 

[Spyro]

Neil Peart was my favorite for decades until I was introduced to Jazz.   My two favorites now are Dave Weckl and Antonio Sanchez.   There are listeners and there are drummers.  Sanchez and Weckl represent the best in the world of jazz (among many others).  If any doubts I ask you to google each of them for 20 min or so and see what they can do (and teach).  They both teach drumming but Weckl in particular has given back more to the drumming world than perhaps any drummer living today.  He flat out loves teaching.  I am no musiciam but am floored by his willingness to help others and watching his teaching videos.  As far as Sanchez and Weckl , I have read that they both chuckle when they say it's usually the non-musicians that applaud their super fast insane licks where the normal musicisans in the audiences appreciate the other underneaath happenings that they carry the music with.
 
For anyone that is not familiar with Antonio Sanchez.  He is here with the Pat Metheny Group.  If you don't care to watch the whole 7min at least go to the 4:20 mark onward to see a master on his instrument.
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efERFCN0B_0

 

[Spyro]

Again, I am not a musician but that is among the best drum solos I have ever seen.  But Sanchez plays with other guys too (Scott Colley, etc) in a way more reserved manner and knows when to give space to the other musicians when called for.  Very versatile...
 
But Antonio Sanchez is a total stud.   Sort of a teaching thing here I found.  The "independence" is a mind boggling thing to me. Piano players do it too.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgElpSXNwK4&feature=related

 

[MacedonianHero]

Some more Neil Peart:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAy8d5bk46Y
 
For rock drummers, the big three IMO are (in no particular order): Neil Peart, John Bohnam, and Keith Moon.
 
Here's one for most underrated drummers: Ringo Starr.

 

[MorbidToaster]

Did you hear about the Olympic Organizing Comity wanting to hire Keith Moon for the closing ceremony at the London Olympics this summer? 
 
Bahaha...now I'm sad...
 
Quote:

Some more Neil Peart:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAy8d5bk46Y
 
For rock drummers, the big three IMO are (in no particular order): Neil Peart, John Bohnam, and Keith Moon.
 
Here's one for most underrated drummers: Ringo Starr.

 
 
 

 

[manveru]

 
Quote:

I have read that they both chuckle when they say it's usually the non-musicians that applaud their super fast insane licks where the normal musicisans in the audiences appreciate the other underneaath happenings that they carry the music with.

 
xD
 
Weckl and Sanchez are great drummers for sure. The most amazing thing about that video is his foot work in combination with his hands. That kind of independence of the limbs, as Akira Jimbo (award for snappiest dressing drummer anyone?) might call it, takes some serious coordination and brain power. Fusion is like this genre that was made for the sole purpose of showcasing crazy drummers, haha. It's perhaps a little harder to get into than others though. My friends describe it as "elevator music."