Most NEUTRAL headphone, I need thoughts...
May 30, 2008 at 8:20 PM Post #31 of 51
Quote:

Originally Posted by MaloS /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Stax Lambda's ARE NOT NEUTRAL. Why? They have an upper midrange/lower treble peak that makes Grados sound relatively flat.


True. I never said they were neutral, just closer to my definition of neutral than the HD600 and most dynamic cans I've heard. The lower treble peak is the reason why I sold the Lambdas.
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May 30, 2008 at 8:28 PM Post #32 of 51
Quote:

Originally Posted by gp_hebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif
True. I never said they were neutral, just closer to my definition of neutral than the HD600 and most dynamic cans I've heard. The lower treble peak is the reason why I sold the Lambdas.
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Ughh...how can it be more neutral if it has a monster emphasis that makes everything that goes on with HD600 look like tiny bumps. But ya, I got to listen to SR-404 extensively with multiple amplifiers (grace of catscratch) and I listened to other Lambdas at meets repeatedly...the only headphone with the lambda driver that sounds righ tis 4070, and subsequently that thing has bigger demands for amplification and costs ALOT more >.<
 
May 30, 2008 at 8:49 PM Post #33 of 51
Quote:

Originally Posted by MaloS /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Ughh...how can it be more neutral if it has a monster emphasis that makes everything that goes on with HD600 look like tiny bumps. But ya, I got to listen to SR-404 extensively with multiple amplifiers (grace of catscratch) and I listened to other Lambdas at meets repeatedly...the only headphone with the lambda driver that sounds righ tis 4070, and subsequently that thing has bigger demands for amplification and costs ALOT more >.<


I understand your point of view and agree with it to a certain extent, but it's not how I see it. For me, the Lambda have one major flaw while the rest is nearly perfect. On the other hand, the HD600 has a lot of minor flaws. The lesser of two evils for me is the Lambda, but I can see why you would prefer the Senns.

Other than that, I have yet to hear of a neutral headphone under 600$. I was in the same situation some time ago and decided to shoot straight to the top because I knew I would upgrade later anyway.
 
May 30, 2008 at 10:08 PM Post #36 of 51
I agree. I just briefly had the Koss ESP-950 here - again - and it is VERY neutral. More so than the HD600. Costs something like $650 new.
 
May 30, 2008 at 10:30 PM Post #37 of 51
RE SR-404/Lambda vs. HD600: the HD600 scales better. Infinitely better. Which is why the many little flaws that it has will start to go away once you get some serious power behind it as well as balanced drive. But, nothing I've heard so far will make the SR-404 into something it isn't, i.e. a very electric-sounding headphone with an unnatural midrange. I can certainly see how you could undo that coloration with a signal path that has the reverse coloration, but I never had the means - or the motivation - to make it work.

RE definition of neutrality: obviously I'm not the OP here, but my definition has 2 parts - 1) relative balance between bass, mids, and treble that is comparable to my ear to a speaker system in an acoustically-treated environment that measures perfectly flat, and 2) an accurate tone to each instrument, which stems from the lack of spikes and dips over specific narrow frequency ranges. The SR-404, for instance, succeeds on point 1, having a very good relative tonal balance in general terms, but fails on point 2, having a very specific spike at 2-4kHz which screws up midrange tone. The HD600 succeeds on both fronts and is a lot more neutral.

RE midbass boost: if you have a headphone that, to a theoretical measuring device, has the same FR as a neutral speaker in a listening room, then to the human ear, it will sound deficient in the lower registers. A headphone's transducers simply cannot move as much air as a speaker, and tactile sensations will be lacking. The tactile element is vital to our perception of bass frequencies, which is why so many headphones, HD600 inclused, boost midbass slightly to give more audible bass information to compensate for the lessened tactile element. I don't see that boost as a violation of neutrality, rather, I think it is necessary, provided that it's not overdone - and in most cases, it is. With a well-driven HD600, though, not only is the bass more impactful than nearly any other headphone, but the midbass boost is lessened compared to a poorly-driven HD600, and is pretty much exactly what you need to psychoacoustically perceive the HD600 as being neutral.

Transparency and detail in my book have nothing to do with neutrality. The HD600 is not that detailed or transparent. The SR-404 is one heck of a lot more transparent and detailed. This is also, to my mind, the reason why so many people equate bright-sounding headphones with neutrality. The ER-4S is not neutral. It is really, really bright. But, its brightness brings out detail that would be a lot harder to hear were it neutral, which gives it the illusion of transparency, which then in many people's minds equates to neutrality. But, in the textbook sense, it has nothing to do with neutrality.

My .02... well, with current dollar inflation, more like my $3,220.
 
May 30, 2008 at 10:41 PM Post #38 of 51
The HD600 is not really that detailed. It has a large and wide midrange bump that reminds me of some studio monitors that emphasize mids over the rest of the spectrum. Furthermore, the treble and bass extensions are poor IMO. Also, I hear no midbass hump at all with mine. I can hear low-bass but not as well as with my DT770, which is why I think the HD600 lacks extension in the lows.

Maybe you should try the following cans for your neutral requirements :

1) Beyer DT100
2) Sony MDR-7509HD

Those cans sound very middy and fit most peoples definition of neutral, but not mine. My definition of neutral is a set of cans that allow me to hear everything from the bottom to the top.

Also, many argue that the Beyer DT150 is the flattest headphone ever with incredible extension.
 
May 30, 2008 at 11:36 PM Post #39 of 51
What about the K701, Stas? Many recos in this thread and no response from you on that one. I think that the K701 with Moon Audio Black Dragon and a good amp is both neutral and covers the top and bottom ends reasonably. The K701 does not unnecessarily color mids or bloat the lows, etc. Regardless of your general reaction to "burn-in" or "break-in" on equipment, these cans need plenty of time to open up and a good, powerful amp because they are not particularly sensitive.
 
May 30, 2008 at 11:49 PM Post #40 of 51
Quote:

Originally Posted by ex0du5 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Aren't the AKG K-701 usually the pair to get for a very accurate and neutral sound?


Yes. I can now attest to that. They need a good amp, however.
 
May 31, 2008 at 12:38 AM Post #41 of 51
I know its been asked in many threads but I just want to ask again here. When you say the k701s need a good amp, do you mean that they need a better amp than what the hd600 needs?
 
May 31, 2008 at 12:39 AM Post #42 of 51
I am not sure about k701, but I am definitely considering it. My main grudge with it is a 'sizzling' lower treble characteristic.
 
May 31, 2008 at 12:57 AM Post #43 of 51
Quote:

Originally Posted by MaloS /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I am not sure about k701, but I am definitely considering it. My main grudge with it is a 'sizzling' lower treble characteristic.


Having owned the RAL re-cabled K701 for about a year now, and particularly in comparison to the K501, I will attest to MaloS' reservations about the K701 due to their upper midrange/lower treble "smear"/irresolution.

While this may be the K701's only flaw (mitigated, to a degree, with the RAL cable), it is unfortunately a rather critical one: interrupting the midrange "flow" and causing the K701 to sound fragmented. This wasn't clearly perceptible to me until doing some serious a/b-ing with the K501, whose midrange is virtually seamless and extremely well integrated with the highs and lows.

Don't misunderstand me, the K701 are a great listen and were my hands-down reference for the past twelve months, but the K501, IMHO, have proven significantly better. With the APS V3 re-cable, I expect the K501 to further surpass the K701 by another order of magnitude.
 
May 31, 2008 at 1:01 AM Post #44 of 51
Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The SR-404, for instance, succeeds on point 1, having a very good relative tonal balance in general terms, but fails on point 2, having a very specific spike at 2-4kHz which screws up midrange tone. The HD600 succeeds on both fronts and is a lot more neutral.

RE midbass boost: if you have a headphone that, to a theoretical measuring device, has the same FR as a neutral speaker in a listening room, then to the human ear, it will sound deficient in the lower registers. A headphone's transducers simply cannot move as much air as a speaker, and tactile sensations will be lacking. The tactile element is vital to our perception of bass frequencies, which is why so many headphones, HD600 inclused, boost midbass slightly to give more audible bass information to compensate for the lessened tactile element. I don't see that boost as a violation of neutrality, rather, I think it is necessary, provided that it's not overdone - and in most cases, it is. With a well-driven HD600, though, not only is the bass more impactful than nearly any other headphone, but the midbass boost is lessened compared to a poorly-driven HD600, and is pretty much exactly what you need to psychoacoustically perceive the HD600 as being neutral.



To me HD600 fails miserably at being neutral as the midbass boost is very annoying to me and SR-404/303 spike does not bother me at all, you even can say I like it
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. No matter how HD600 is amped to me it always sounds distant, slow and overly warm, not even close to neutral. This proves, yet again, that psychoacoustically we all hear things differently so OPs question is mostly like will go unanswered
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May 31, 2008 at 1:04 AM Post #45 of 51
Sorry to be a nuisance, but could you guys be more specific when you say Lambda? There are about a dozen models that fit under the Lambda name, but it seems like the most referred to so far is the SR-404/303. Thanks.
 

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