[pataburd]

MaloS, what specifically do you mean by NEUTRAL?

That word has been bandied about these forums without, AFAIK, a consensus as to its practical or applicable meaning(s) on any given day.

If you peruse Webster's dictionary the word "neutral," for the most part, does not have a particularly positive or illuminating connotation concerning sonic attributes near-and-dear to head-fiers.

I would venture to say "absolutely faithful to the source recording," with the proviso that musicality is enhanced, not restrained in the process, but that begs a wholly other question about every piece of upstream gear right down to the wire, literally, and overall system synergy in light of the headphone of choice.

Are you baiting us? : )

 

[TheMarchingMule]

As a musician, I can say that the K701 gave so much air to every instrument that I felt that I was listening to instruments made out of clouds; nothing had any weight to it.

The lack of deep, prominent bass didn't really help its case either.

 

[pataburd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees /img/forum/go_quote.gif AKG K701

A year--or even six months--ago, I would have been more inclined to agree with you (and everyone else endorsing the K701 in response to MaloS' rather dubious question). Today, however, I would more willingly assert that the K501 are more "neutral"--whatever that may mean at the moment--than the K701. : )

That aside, I would still steer MaloS, that naughty boy, to the RAL re-cabled HD600, AKA "MaloS' Mecca of NEUTRALity"! : ) : )

 

[Kees]

There is another option to consider: Apple iBuds.
They are completely indifferent to what you plug them into and will always sound the same.
How more neutral can you get?

 

[Jap]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pataburd /img/forum/go_quote.gif MaloS, what specifically do you mean by NEUTRAL? That word has been bandied about these forums without, AFAIK, a consensus as to its practical or applicable meaning(s). If you peruse Webster's dictionary the word "neutral," for the most part, does not have a particularly positive connotation concerning sonic attributes near-and-dear to head-fiers. I would venture to say "absolutely faithful to the source recording," but that begs a wholly other question about all upstream gear and system synergy in light of the headphone of choice. Are you baiting us? : )

[size=medium]Sir MaloS can speak for himself. However, I always regarded the term "neutral" as a synonym for "transparent." Since there is minimal coloration, one is better able to detect changes due to downstream elements in the system. It was a bit of a surprise to me to learn some Head-fiers don't see things that way.

For my experience, the most neutral/trasparent phone I have heard to date is the Joe Grado HP-2, although a used pair would be priced well beyond MaloS' spending limit. I would imagine many of the better studio-quality phones should also be rich in this quality.

[/size]

 

[Fr_eak]

AKG K240M/DF

 

[pataburd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees /img/forum/go_quote.gif There is another option to consider: Apple iBuds. They are completely indifferent to what you plug them into and will always sound the same. How more neutral can you get?

I'll hop on this not-quite IEM bandwagon with a shameless and emphatic endorsement of the Etymotic ER-4S!

"IN your ear, Baby!!!!" : )

 

[donunus]

Is the RAL recable just like the usual hd600 removeable cable? do you have a link to their site pataburd?

 

[Tiemen]

AKG K-400

 

[TheMarchingMule]

1. The ER4P/S always sound cold to me; like, sure it was accurate, but it was darn emotionless with the way it presented the sound.
2. I wouldn't deal with RAL after they've been exposed lately to be quite the cheeky business. A recent Head-Fi member unwittingly sent his K701 to them, and had to jump on RAL customer service ASAP to make sure that they weren't going to do anything else to his K701 other than recable them. I mean heck, they got banned from Audiogon...
3. Yes, the high-end (and sadly discontinued) last-gen Grados (i.e. HP-2) are crazy neutral and something else for your ears to process, but because of their production status, they aren't an option for the OP.

 

[Navyblue]

ER-4 is the most accurate I've heard. I personally do not consider K701 as accurate. It's midrange simply sounded different and treble is warmish.

I do not find ER-4 cold, it is as close as neutral as I've heard. It has the potential of sounding dead and uninvolving, but that is because recordings are made that way (imagine how would an exciting sounding recording sounds on a Grado), as it will not exaggerate "emotion" as most phones do.

But ER-4 isn't a headphone.

 

[uraflit]

Bose Triports. lol.

if i were you, i'd try and audition a cardas/RAL recabled HD600. followed by that beyer ppl mention.

oh, and i probably wont mod my D2000 anytime soon, so you'll have to find a markl modded denon somewhere else =DDD

 

[pataburd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donunus /img/forum/go_quote.gif Is the RAL recable just like the usual hd600 removeable cable? do you have a link to their site pataburd?

Yes. It's detachable, like all the others. Do a google search for Revelation Audio Labs; that should bet you there. However, Brad does not advertize his headphone re-cables on the site. You must e-mail or call him to make arrangements. : )

 

[gp_hebert]

I had a pair of Cardas single-ended HD600 running out of a M^3 for a while and even though it was an excellent system, I don't think it was neutral at all.

My definition of "neutrality" is an even presentation of bass, mids and treble without overemphasizing on any frequency and at the same time keeping a clear separation between the different instruments on the recording, meaning having a good power of resolution. So far, the most neutral cans I've heard are Grado HP-1 and HP-2.

What's keeping the HD600 from being neutral IMO is a slight over-presentation of mid-bass and a lack of resolution/details in the mids region. Perhaps this can be cured by good amplification or a good source (I was using E-MU 0404 USB at the time), but it kept me from calling it neutral. Also, I didn't like the fact that its overall presentation is very slow and adds weight on some music pieces that are supposed to be tight and snappy.

My best advice would be to break the two rules in your post and buy any flavour of Stax Lambda with cheap Stax amp. These are much closer to my definition of neutral than the HD600.

 

[MaloS]

Sorry, I forgot to lay down definition of neutral, guys.
Neutral means flat response as perceived by my ears (rough equivalent of me having a pair of Genelec or JBL studio monitors in a treated room, FR wise). This includes a requirement for extension, because roll-off is not part of a flat curve on 20-20.

The flatness requirement partly takes out electrostatic systems except for O2/4070 out of the picture, lambda reason is described below, while SR-003 does not have sufficient extension in both directions ... and I can't deal with the fit after owning SR-005a system for 5 months (although it sounds amazing, I agree).

It seems that we have lack of consensus going on here, and maybe I should listen to catscratch in this regard...

So far HD600 remains at the top of the list. Anyone can add more information about the DT48 E?

Quote:

Originally Posted by gp_hebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif I had a pair of Cardas single-ended HD600 running out of a M^3 for a while and even though it was an excellent system, I don't think it was neutral at all. My definition of "neutrality" is an even presentation of bass, mids and treble without overemphasizing on any frequency and at the same time keeping a clear separation between the different instruments on the recording, meaning having a good power of resolution. So far, the most neutral cans I've heard are Grado HP-1 and HP-2. What's keeping the HD600 from being neutral IMO is a slight over-presentation of mid-bass and a lack of resolution/details in the mids region. Perhaps this can be cured by good amplification or a good source (I was using E-MU 0404 USB at the time), but it kept me from calling it neutral. Also, I didn't like the fact that its overall presentation is very slow and adds weight on some music pieces that are supposed to be tight and snappy. My best advice would be to break the two rules in your post and buy any flavour of Stax Lambda with cheap Stax amp. These are much closer to my definition of neutral than the HD600.

Emphasis in midbass results from multiple factors in that system:
HD600 has its own midbass hump that occurs due to slowness of the driver and actually clears up with good amplification.
E-MU 0404 is warm and has a midbass hump also (all of E-MU equipment does).

Stax Lambda's ARE NOT NEUTRAL. Why? They have an upper midrange/lower treble peak that makes Grados sound relatively flat.

On the case of people mentioning Etymotics - when I used these, I heard treble peaks all over the place .

I do agree that HP-1/HP-2 are some of the most neutral cans available on the market, but the price and difficulty of replacement remove them from something I'd like to deal with.