[fjrabon]

Is it just me, or is the definition of "neutral" off on here? For instance, people describe the M-50 as "bass monsters" around here. While I think their bass is great, I consider them a fairly neutral/flat sounding headphone, as far as headphones go. People refer to the HD600 as kind of the standard for flat around here. And while I love them, I've always felt they were too bass light to truly be neutral. Yet, people will sometimes refer to them as too bassy?! HD650's seem pretty neutral to me, but they're referred to as overly bassy by a lot of people. And don't get me started on talk that the K701 is neutral/true to the recording.

Now it would be one thing if this were all just a matter of preference, a lot of people prefer to hear a lot of detail, more than anything else, and that's best accomplished when the bass isn't getting in the way. Also, headphones typically only have one driver, and one driver just isn't going to be perfect from 20Hz to 20kHz. So, I can understand that some people, if they have to choose bass or highs, might choose highs.

However, it seems that over time headphones themselves have become the frame of reference for headphones. And thus headphones' natural tendency to being slightly bass light has actually shifted perceptions around these parts of what neutral/flat sounding actually is. Put a K701 up against a music file that should generate an equally loud, though shifting in frequency, sound and as it gets higher, it will start to rip your eardrums out.

I think this, along with soundstage depth, are the two main areas that make speaker audiophile guys kind of chuckle at headphiles. I have a friend with some insane speaker setups. I was auditioning HD600's at the time and he was kind of curious about them. His first response was "this is supposed to be flat? I always hear how these things are neutral, seriously?" He admitted that detail retrieval was great, said they were fun in their way to listen to, but couldn't get past the fact that they "fundamentally sound wrong."

Now my point here isn't to rip headphones. My point is to ask, has the definition of what is neutral or flat drifted in favor of sparkling highs and detail retrieval and against a full bottom end? It's one of the first things I learned as a sound guy, at some point you always have to make a trade off between having a full sound and having a really, really clear sound. Better gear always makes that trade off come a little further, but at some point it's always there. It is just a fact that bass muddles with upper range detail at some point, inevitably. Which is why I kind of chuckle at the 1090130478 threads asking "can I have the K701's upper range with the M50's bass?" With the M50's bass, the K701 upper range wouldn't sound as clear.

Have headphiles permanently decided to make that tradeoff further towards detail and away from fullness of sound? And this has then skewered what the definition of neutral is? Neutral, IMHO, should mean a perfect equal loudness curve. An equal loudness generator should sound just as loud at 40 Hz all the way to 10 kHz. None of the headphones we talk about as "neutral" around here come anywhere close to that, IMHO. 7 kHz will almost always rip your head off in comparison to 150 Hz. Which would be fine to say that's a sound signature you prefer, but seems just wrong to me to refer to that as "neutral".

 

[chinesekiwi]

This is why I use different terms. I only specifically use 'neutral' to describe studio monitor headphones and I use 'balanced' to refer to headphones that do not have great variance in quantity between the 3 main different sound frequencies types.

Both are not one and the same due to the equal-loudness contours. This in turn makes 'true neutral' for human ears not flatline
Studio monitors are flat for production purposes.

Saying that the K701 is neutral / balanced sounding is a joke tbh. Can I have my sub-bass?

Anyway, I particuarly agree with this part:

Quote:

However, it seems that over time headphones themselves have become the frame of reference for headphones. And thus headphones' natural tendency to being slightly bass light has actually shifted perceptions around these parts of what neutral/flat sounding actually is. Put a K701 up against a music file that should generate an equally loud, though shifting in frequency, sound and as it gets higher, it will start to rip your eardrums out. I think this, along with soundstage depth, are the two main areas that make speaker audiophile guys kind of chuckle at headphiles. I have a friend with some insane speaker setups. I was auditioning HD600's at the time and he was kind of curious about them. His first response was "this is supposed to be flat? I always hear how these things are neutral, seriously?" He admitted that detail retrieval was great, said they were fun in their way to listen to, but couldn't get past the fact that they "fundamentally sound wrong."

Headphones need bass too to be neutral! But yeah, 'soundstage' in headphones is rather silly (except for the HD800 tbh, which comes close to massively expensive speaker setups tbh). But also consider you get this stuff in speakers as well e.g. the 'British sound' (mid-oriented).

 

[fjrabon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chinesekiwi /img/forum/go_quote.gif Both are not one and the same due to the equal-loudness contours. Studio monitors are flat for production purposes.

equal loudness contours (our ears sensitivity to midrange being accentuated by Jesus or evolution to pick up speech better) should be taken care of by the recording though, not gear. IMHO, by the time it gets to the headphone or speaker stage, flat = balanced.

Now, there is a difference between headphones measuring flat and sounding flat, because of their proximity to the ear, but that's another matter. Here, I'm just talking about sounding flat, not measuring flat.

 

[MrGreen]

The distance between driver and ear is the reason for the difference.

 

[fishski13]

excellent discussion. my ATC SCM12 monitors start to roll off at 60 Hz. being a sealed design, they have a linear bass roll off without any ported bass bloom or boost. i consider them to be 'neutral' and 'balanced', for a 12L stand-mount monitor. honestly, many of the HPs i've owned had what i would consider hyped bass. i'm making no claims about "accuracy" - whatever flies your kite.

 

[fjrabon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chinesekiwi /img/forum/go_quote.gif But also consider you get this stuff in speakers as well e.g. the 'British sound' (mid-oriented).

Yeah, this is true, but at least in speaker world neutral means flat. You can then deviate from flat and talk about how this one is mid-oriented, or this electrostatic is high oriented, etc. But your reference point is always flat in speaker world. It seems that in headphile world the reference isn't flat, but mid and high freq oriented.

edit: would have responded all at once, but the second part wasn't in your post the first time I responded.

 

[fjrabon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrGreen /img/forum/go_quote.gif The distance between driver and ear is the reason for the difference.

well, that is part of the reason why headphones sound different, along with the fact that they typically only have one driver, while a quality neutral speaker setup almost always has multiple drivers.

But the question isn't "why do headphones sound the way they do?", but rather "have we let the way headphones tend to sound skew the definition of what neutral is?"

 

[kool bubba ice]

These discussions just end in arguments or in strong opinions.. IMO & many others the DT48/240DF/CD900ST are neutral/flat.. Or at least closer to that then most headphones.. & all are/were made for serious studio monitoring.. If people want to play gotcha, with the bass, or sub bass issue, go right a head.

 

[fjrabon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool bubba ice /img/forum/go_quote.gif These discussions just end in arguments or in strong opinions.. IMO & many others the DT48/240DF/CD900ST are neutral/flat.. Or at least closer to that then most headphones.. & all are/were made for serious studio monitoring.. If people want to play gotcha, with the bass, or sub bass issue, go right a head.

I think the DT48 is super flat over a somewhat small range of the audible range, which is what they were made to do. You can definitely say they are flat in the midrange. But they weren't made to be flat overall, when they were made nobody even considered that this could, even in theory, be possible for headphones.

 

[nikongod]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjrabon /img/forum/go_quote.gif equal loudness contours (our ears sensitivity to midrange being accentuated by Jesus or evolution to pick up speech better) should be taken care of by the recording though, not gear. IMHO, by the time it gets to the headphone or speaker stage, flat = balanced.

I disagree.
It is not the responsibility of the sound engineer to apply a "loudness" countour to their recording, but the responsibility of a listener who only wants to listen at 65db. When played back at the levels a professional listener would listen a piece of music with a loudness contour applied sounds like crap.
Quote:

Now, there is a difference between headphones measuring flat and sounding flat, because of their proximity to the ear, but that's another matter. Here, I'm just talking about sounding flat, not measuring flat.

but sounding flat is not exactly right.
They do SOUND flat.
The problem comes that a large part of bass perception is the fact that in a live setting or from speakers the sound wave has substantial effects on the whole body and you feel the sound in your chest, and through the floor. On headphones you are lucky to even get the outer ear involved in the fun. If you are accustomed to speakers this is an easy place to loose the sound.

Headphones do sound flat. They dont feel flat though.

 

[fjrabon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikongod /img/forum/go_quote.gif I disagree. It is not the responsibility of the sound engineer to apply a "loudness" countour to their recording, but the responsibility of a listener who only wants to listen at 65db. When played back at the levels a professional listener would listen a piece of music with a loudness contour applied sounds like crap.

Well, yes, if you listen to music at a different volume than what it was mastered for, it will not have the correct loudness contour built in, since you can only master for one loudness contour. Generally the engineer is given the target demographic and what level they listen at and are supposed to master based on that. Classical is about 65dB, while rock and pop are mastered for about 75 dB. So yes, I agree that if you listen below those levels you will want more HF and more bass.
Quote:

Originally Posted by nikongod /img/forum/go_quote.gif but sounding flat is not exactly right. They do SOUND flat. The problem comes that a large part of bass perception is the fact that in a live setting or from speakers the sound wave has substantial effects on the whole body and you feel the sound in your chest, and through the floor. On headphones you are lucky to even get the outer ear involved in the fun. If you are accustomed to speakers this is an easy place to loose the sound. Headphones do sound flat. They dont feel flat though.

That's part of the issue, sure. Our brain doesn't just hear from our ears, it also uses our body to hear noises below about 400 Hz. But even putting aside that issue for a second, headphones are still titled to the upper upper midrange and highest frequencies a good portion of the time. The high frequencies on an audiophile headphone are far more present than on an audiophile flat speaker system. I don't think this is a body soundwave absorption issue. If most people on here ran an equal loudness sound file, they'd realize that 5-7 kHz was way louder than anything else.

But my main question is still, have we taken these sort of "known" issues that headphones have, that they tend to be tilted towards the upper frequencies and have little bass impact to actually change the definition of what neutral is? To where when a lot of headphone fanatics hear a really good neutral speaker system they immediately complain that the bass is bloated and they can't hear enough detail.

 

[fjrabon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikongod /img/forum/go_quote.gif The problem comes that a large part of bass perception is the fact that in a live setting or from speakers the sound wave has substantial effects on the whole body and you feel the sound in your chest, and through the floor. On headphones you are lucky to even get the outer ear involved in the fun. If you are accustomed to speakers this is an easy place to loose the sound.

This kind of reminds me of a funny story. Once I was installing a sound system into a new hip hop club. Their sound booth was already built and was very substantial and was kind of tall, such that the wall in front of me went to about my shoulders. I didn't think about this too much at the time, but I did most of the tuning from the booth (I was a noobie at the time, just 18 and this was my first unsupervised job). So I did my job and installed a **** ton of power, got it sounding to what I thought was pretty decent, though still a tiny bit bass deficient for a hip hop club. But they had made clear they weren't buying any more power than what was already being installed. So I did my job and then came back that night to hear it with people in the club.

I walked in and was punched in the gut with bass. Way more than I ever would have tuned in. I had a sick feeling in my gut, thinking "man, I really screwed up my first major job." However, I got a pleasant surprise, because the owner was grinning ear to ear, talking about how he never dreamed it would be this good. He actually gave me a $800 tip.

All because I was new and nervous and forgot to walk out into the club and let the bass hit me without the protective barrier of the sound booth, I was essentially only hearing the bass with my ears, not my whole body. My boss then gave me a promotion and a raise because the club owner owned 4 other clubs and he wanted me to do the sound for all of them, even though they didn't really need a new sound system.

kind of off topic, but whatever, I started the thread.

 

[rhythmdevils]

interesting that there's been a few threads about this lately. Not a problem though, I agree with everything you have posted in this thread, and run into the same thing (though I do feel that the HD600 has neutral bass). Even aside from the bass quantity issue, why do so many headphones have so much treble? Honestly, aside from a few studio monitors like the m50 and k240, sennheisers might be the only in production phones that don't have elevated treble, and, almost as if in fear, they went the other direction just to be safe.

I think one reason might be similar to the loudness war, that on initial listen at the store, a phone with more treble and less bass will sound much more clear and detailed, and if detail is your priority, it's hard to go back. It also sounds like the "anti-skullcandy".

edit: OP, you should listen to a pair of Joseph Grado HP1000. From every headphone I've heard by all the different brands, they're the only ones that really sound dead neutral to me, from top to bottom. And that is backed up by the fact that their sound changes the most with different recordings, amps, sources. It's almost as if they impart no sound signature of their own. scary sometimes. most of the other "neutral" phones, in my experience, make every recording/amp/source sound the same.

 

[fjrabon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhythmdevils /img/forum/go_quote.gif edit: OP, you should get yourself to a meet, and listen to a pair of Joseph Grado HP1000. From every headphone I've heard by all the different brands, they're the only ones that really sound dead neutral to me, from top to bottom. And that is backed up by the fact that their sound changes the most with different recordings, amps, sources. It's almost as if they impart no sound signature of their own. scary sometimes. Compare that to many of the other phones that are hailed as neutral, which, in my experience, make every recording/amp/source sound the same.

Funny you mention that, as this has been #1 on my "to listen to" headphone for quite some time. I'd say it's almost part of my mild dislike for current Grados, the rep of the old ones as being so dead neutral. Though admittedly I've never heard them.

Edit: also, I searched this topic, as I had a feeling it may have been done before, but I couldn't really figure out what to search for, as all the terms I thought of, such as flat, neutral, etc came up with a lot of stuff, none of which is what I was after.

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhythmdevils /img/forum/go_quote.gif interesting that there's been a few threads about this lately. Not a problem though, I agree with everything you have posted in this thread, and run into the same thing (though I do feel that the HD600 has neutral bass). Even aside from the bass quantity issue, why do so many headphones have so much treble? Honestly, aside from a few studio monitors like the m50 and k240, sennheisers might be the only in production phones that don't have elevated treble, and, almost as if in fear, they went the other direction just to be safe. I think one reason might be similar to the loudness war, that on initial listen at the store, a phone with more treble and less bass will sound much more clear and detailed, and if detail is your priority, it's hard to go back. It also sounds like the "anti-skullcandy". edit: OP, you should listen to a pair of Joseph Grado HP1000. From every headphone I've heard by all the different brands, they're the only ones that really sound dead neutral to me, from top to bottom. And that is backed up by the fact that their sound changes the most with different recordings, amps, sources. It's almost as if they impart no sound signature of their own. scary sometimes. most of the other "neutral" phones, in my experience, make every recording/amp/source sound the same.

I will probably get flammed for this, but this sounds like the DT48