Minidisc Opinions

Nov 13, 2003 at 2:42 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 48

HackofDestruct

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I did my searching on the subject.
Just had to get that out of the way.


Does a minidisc player sound better than a PCDP?

Do all of the new ones record onto minidiscs?

What are the best ones in the medium price rage right now?


Thanks for any input.
Green
 
Nov 13, 2003 at 3:01 AM Post #2 of 48
Models in the USA...
MZ-NE410 (basic NetMD-only recorder, it only records from a computer)
MZ-N510-has more features, etc...
MZ-S1-has an optical-in only, built-like a tank, etc.
MZ-NF610-same as 510, but has a radio remote
MZ-NF810-Uses a gumstick battery and has a radio on the remote, which is backlit (unlike the 610's)
MZ-E10-The Player, it plays only
MZ-N10-records, has a mic-in, etc. it uses a built-in Lithium Polymer battery or something like that, it's got a stick-style backlit remote.

The MZ-N707 can be had for around $140 bucks or so, it's a last-years model, but it's really good (I have a S1).

If you want a japanese one, then get the Sharp MD-DR7 from http://www.Audiocubes.com/ , it's $240 and records, all that good stuff, and has an "Auvi" digital amplifier that puts out a 6mW/channel into 32ohms (a lot louder than the sony models), It CAN NOT use NetMD, since it is a recorder only.

Check out the Minidisc T-Station Superboard for more info
 
Nov 13, 2003 at 3:19 AM Post #4 of 48
All of them can record with the exception of the MZ-E10 (within the US, japan has lots of models that are play-only).

Minidisc Units can only play ATRAC...however, older units cannot play LP tracks, if you get a new unit, it will be able to do everything you want (with the exception of the NE410, which only records from a computer).
 
Nov 13, 2003 at 3:22 AM Post #5 of 48
Well first understand that a minidisc takes CD-quality files and compresses them. So strictly speaking, something has been removed and its below the max sound quality that you can get from a CD.

That said, 99% or modern PCDP sound bad. To my ears,if I play an a optically recorded minidisc at LP quality on a Sharp DR7 Minidsc, it is better than the sound output from most PCDP's.- You'd probaly get the same result from any Sharp Minidisc released after the DR7 model. (BTW, the DR7 is actually 8mw into 32 Ohms, not 6 mW)

There is a net MD model of the DR7 technology. I think it is named the Dr80 or something like that. Check www.minidisc.org and look at the "Equipment Browser" section.

The Sony minidiscs often have a thinner, morelightweight sound its less likely that they can actually sound any better than the PCDP becuase that thinness/flatness is exacty what the problem is with the PCDP's.
 
Nov 13, 2003 at 3:55 AM Post #6 of 48
let put it this way, minidisc player sound better with compressed files than 95% of the portable cd players playing real cd. something about it, i dont know how.

one bad thing is that they have low headphone output, but usualy loud enough for me. remember if you're planning to buy one get one with netMD support so you can transfer files from computer. line out is an important function for me because i want to listen to music out of speakers in my bedroom at night. very few minidisc players have this feature, only the old ones and the new expensive ones, like sony mz-n10 and n910 and n1.

i love their portability, that they dont skip, sound good, and have very good battery life. though in the end i didnt settle for one mainly because i couldnt afford it. their prices dont seem to go down. the mz10 is still roughly $285 to $340 and i didnt want to settle with a cheaper one without a line out. another thing that draw me away from MD players is sony's copyright. you cant play anything except atrac and you have to use the sonic stage, which is the crappiest software, to convert your mp3s to atrac and transfer. thus making it very unconvience for me. i didnt get any bugs or problems, except sometime they wont let me convert the mp3s because 'cant find copyright info for file', but its time consuming to sit there and importing your mp3s and converting them and transferring them. that's why i bought for a pcdp instead. one day i would like to own the mz-n10 though.

http://minidisc.org/images/sony_mzn10_14.jpg
this + a pair of good canalphones or a px200 and it doesnt get anymore portable than that.
 
Nov 13, 2003 at 4:56 AM Post #7 of 48
Quote:

Originally posted by terrymx
let put it this way, minidisc player sound better with compressed files than 95% of the portable cd players playing real cd. something about it, i dont know how.

one bad thing is that they have low headphone output, but usualy loud enough for me. remember if you're planning to buy one get one with netMD support so you can transfer files from computer. line out is an important function for me because i want to listen to music out of speakers in my bedroom at night. very few minidisc players have this feature, only the old ones and the new expensive ones, like sony mz-n10 and n910 and n1.

i love their portability, that they dont skip, sound good, and have very good battery life. though in the end i didnt settle for one mainly because i couldnt afford it. their prices dont seem to go down. the mz10 is still roughly $285 to $340 and i didnt want to settle with a cheaper one without a line out. another thing that draw me away from MD players is sony's copyright. you cant play anything except atrac and you have to use the sonic stage, which is the crappiest software, to convert your mp3s to atrac and transfer. thus making it very unconvience for me. i didnt get any bugs or problems, except sometime they wont let me convert the mp3s because 'cant find copyright info for file', but its time consuming to sit there and importing your mp3s and converting them and transferring them. that's why i bought for a pcdp instead. one day i would like to own the mz-n10 though.

http://minidisc.org/images/sony_mzn10_14.jpg
this + a pair of good canalphones or a px200 and it doesnt get anymore portable than that.


You recommend NetMD units, but you've never actually used them(it sounds like). I get my N510 because it was at a reasonable price and it had NetMD AND optical-in, and let me just say, NetMD is one of the biggest pieces of garbage I have ever used. Yeah it looks great on paper, but when you realize you give up so much(ability to edit on MD unit, no SP recordings, headaches of using Satan's software, etc.) just to gain easy track titling and quicker transfers in theory(I find converting to ATRAC and then transfering to a player takes just as much time as making a quality SP recording via Optical In) is a horrible tradeoff. I think ultimately I would like to get a MD deck w/ PS/2 port to get all the advantages of NetMD w/o the numerous disadvantages, that would be sweet.
cool.gif
 
Nov 13, 2003 at 5:25 AM Post #9 of 48
Quote:

Originally posted by Bionic Gecko I think ultimately I would like to get a MD deck w/ PS/2 port to get all the advantages of NetMD w/o the numerous disadvantages, that would be sweet.
cool.gif
[/B]


Net MD is definitley not up to par. But frankly Sony is record company so its not like you'd expect them to sell you a recrding protable with REASONABLE copy protection. If the RIAA were reasonable we'd have known it a long time ago.

But what do you mean "PS/2 port"? What is that and which MD decks have them?
 
Nov 13, 2003 at 5:58 AM Post #10 of 48
I have a huge collection of MP3s.

How would I get those to a minidisc?

What exactly does NEtMD do?

What players/recorders does it work with?

Are there any good online review sites that have a good feature comparison feature?

Also what is line out?
Just a 1/8" jack?

Thanks for all the help,
Green
 
Nov 13, 2003 at 9:50 AM Post #11 of 48
think of it this way - i use my MD to make my favorite CDs portable at almost the same quality, and i use an ipod for all my mp3s for whatever other reason. However, my ipod gets literally less that 1 hour per week of use - i much prefer the sound quality, battery life, durability, and portabilty of MD (read: gym, running, classes).


i would say that MD isn't worth it if it is for mp3 only, you would need netMD which blows in pretty much everyones opinion. The way i use mine is that it is always hooked to my optical out, and when i have time i listen to an entire cd while recording it. this is the only way i listen to CDs, not track by track, so i make MD recordings without doing anything i wouldnt do. i think my MD unit (610) sounds great - i dont even think i need a portable amp anymore. The bass is huge and highs crisp, and unlistenable above 20/30 clicks on the volume. this is not the case with any new-age PCDPs that i have used.
 
Nov 13, 2003 at 10:05 AM Post #12 of 48
Not surprisingly, I see another "MiniDisc is dying" post among this thread. I've seen many such comments before, but the format is very popular in most places other than Norh America.

The MD format, while "lossy," has so many pluses. It's a recordable medium with the only restrictions imposed by the likes of Sony, themselves. Media is cheap, very durable, and editing is easy. Of course, portability is an obvious advantage.

Soundwise, just about any MD unit pastes the newest PCDP. DAC's seem to be much better with MD recorders and players. In fact, an SP recording made on a modern portable or deck (ATRAC Type-R) sounds as good or better than most original CD recordings heard on a high-end audio system. The ATRAC encoding ads a certain sheen to the transfer.

Net MD has its warts and idiosyncracies, namely due to the software you get with the units.

Anyway, MiniDisc is far from being history but will always remain, at least, a "niche" market in North America, thanks to those who are fussy about sound quality.
 
Nov 13, 2003 at 11:15 AM Post #13 of 48
Quality is important to me. However so is convenience.


I don't think it can be argued that I'm fussy about sound quality. I am. MD users who also still insist that MD has the edge in sound quality clearly haven't heard what's available now. The iPod may not impress in some areas of sound, but it does give you far more options in using better headphones due to the high powered amp, and there are now that many other players around which do as good a job as MD for sound... if not better.


SonicStage software for Net MD does a speedy but relatively poor job of encoding CD's into LP2 format. And MP3 translation to ATRAC is frankly terrible. The software is also further let down by minor bugs which frustrate you on a daily basis. LP2 should be roughly equivalent to 192K rips... but only when actually using the portable or deck, recording in real time. I don't know what Sonicstage's interpretation of LP2 when transferring things over is, but to me it's more akin to 128K MP3.
If you took an unfair comparison (SP copies made in dreary slow real time versus 320K rips on Musicmatch) the quality is practically indistinguishable on the move. Now factor that in to the time it takes to transfer.
Going onto a fairer test, and what the original poster actually wants to do which is transfer MP3's onto the unit, any hard disk player nowadays features USB2.0 or Firewire ports for blazing transfer speeds without any mucking around. Net MD's transcode each MP3 files into ATRAC. It's slow... it takes twice as long as it takes Musicmatch to rip the equivalent original track to MP3, then it has to be transferred to the player via USB1.1. But it doesn't end there... The MP3-ATRAC transcoding engine of Net MD is badly coded and not every file translates properly.
The result is that while an album already in MP3 format may take 20 seconds to transfer to an HDD MP3 player, it will take a couple of minutes to transfer the same tracks to Net MD and in any case may not transfer properly.


If you're primarily an MP3 user, I would not recommend Net MD. It will burden you with completely unnecessary extra frustration.
 
Nov 13, 2003 at 12:58 PM Post #14 of 48
Is there any other software similar to NetMD?

Could I encode the tracks myself then transfer them over?

If not a minidisc player what else?

Are there things of similar size i.e. MP3 players that get as much music?

Thanks
Green
 
Nov 13, 2003 at 1:03 PM Post #15 of 48
I have a Sony MZ-R900, which was a top of the line model a year or two ago. I love the thing, to be honest, but it has fallen out of use in recent times, and has been replaced by an iPod as my primary portable. Others have posted a lot of the pros, such as good sound quality, portability, and battery life -- and these things are true, but here are some things you should be aware of if you intend to make a move to MD.

The first is the cost and inconvenience(more on convenience below) of media. The average price for good quality discs is around $3-$4. You can find them for less, but I've found that you get what you pay for in this realm. So while the base cost of an MD player might seem on par with a good PCDP, or even an MP3 player, the actual cost is going to be equal with an expensive HD MP3 player, and much more than a PCDP since the MP3 players come with all the storage in the price, and obviously the PCDP plays what you already own.

As far as quality goes, I would actually rate it in the middle. PCDP on the bottom, despite the far superior format, because there are no good outputs on modern players these days. MD generally has much better sound, but MP3 (I use the term to classify all digital players, whether you play AAC or Ogg Vorbis, raw PCM, or whatever) can actually be superior to all of them due to variable bitrate encoding and some that even play FLAC, a lossless compression. A good MP3 player can put out surprisingly impressive sound (class C, according to a recent Stereophile review).

The next thing you have to watch out for is NetMD in modern MD players. They promise extremely fast transfers. Top of the line Sony players can transfer LP4 files at 64x, and LP2 at 32x. The multiplier being based on a real time transfer. However, and this is a big however, the quality of the files being transferred at this speed are dubious at best, and the current software used to transfer them is riddled with obnoxious "copy protection" schemes. The main problem with using LP2/4 is that they are highly compressed using ATRAC. So when you move your MP3s or other digital files with it, you suffer the consequences of transencoding. Artifacts from multiple psychoacoustic models that do not regard each other, and so on. Just as any digital format afficiendo would never take an MP3 and turn it into an AAC without very careful consideration, one should approach the MP3 to ATRAC conversion process with equal caution. Additionally you are at the mercy of a single vendor for ATRAC encoding and original file decoding, where with other digital formats, you can pick and choose based on quality. There is no LAME in the ATRAC world.

So for anyone who is really concerned with quality, they will rarely mess with LP2 or LP4, meaning you are stuck with real time transfers. This is a slow, slow process for moving your collection from CD, and requires a CD player with optical out for the best quality. Some Sony models come with a USB "soundcard" with an optical out, letting you use a computer to transfer.

The alternative to that is getting a proper deck MD player/recorder. This is an expensive solution, but it gives you much better quality recordings, and some integrated CD/MD decks offer 2x and 4x transfer rates at full quality. If you are serious about MD, getting a deck for recording is something to consider.

Portability is the next issue. While one would think that an MD collection would take up much less space than a CD collection, I have found this to not really be the case. If you carry your CDs around in a portfolio without the jewel cases, you can actually tote around an impressive amount of music. Due to the MD's thickness being inside its own integrated jewel case, the collection cannot be compressed much. In a typical day, I was taking out roughly the same amount of music for use with my MD that I had been with my CD player. This means carefully selecting what I think I will wish to listen to during the day. This is where a hard drive MP3 player clearly wins, as with the larger capacity models, one can carry around their entire collection in a device the size of a deck of playing cards, at quality levels that are on par, or exceed the alternatives. In fact, I found the things to be so portable that I went ahead and got a miniature amp and case (from HeadRoom) to give me even better portable quality, since I was no longer toting around a portfolio of media.

The next thing to be aware of is ATRAC itself, and this is really a matter of taste. For me it is a negative, others really like the sound it puts out. The main reason I've stopped using MD is because I felt that ATRAC sounded very lifeless. At first audition, I was very impressed, partially because I had only compared it to portable CD, and it was clearly so much better. But as time went on I realized just how little soul the music had. While all of the sounds are there, the life is sucked out of it for me. This is just something you'll have to figure out for yourself since everyone's ears (and equipment) are different.

Another person already brought it up, but I'll add my vote as well, and that is the weak output signal. Doubtlessly this is part of how they get their battery time. If you plan on using low efficiency headphones, such as the Etys, you'll be hurting for a portable amp. With the ER4S, the sound out of the R900 was a little too soft, and had a thin quality. Once I switched it over to Line Out (that model has an integrated software switch on a single jack, kind of weird if you ask me) and plugged it into a Cosmic -- well then that is a different story entirely. The sound coming out of there was very strong, and that is of course when I started hearing all of the limitations of ATRAC. Though I'll be the first to admit that an ER4S/Cosmic combination was a rather remorseless way to treat my MD. That kit will tear a deck CD player up. I have no experience with using high efficiency headphones, other than the ones supplied with the player, and -- eh -- well you know the type of dung they bundle with players.
smily_headphones1.gif


I am getting down to the end of my list. This is another one that depends entirely on the person. If you have larger hands, most of these players have very tiny controls. Though they are better than they used to be. See if you can find a picture of the model I have somewhere. That thing has buttons you practically need a toothpick and an jeweler's loupe to manipulate! If you buy used, that is something to look out for. Today's MD players, at least from what they look like on the website, appear to be a bit more intelligently designed.

And last but not least: You are at the mercy of Sony.
smily_headphones1.gif
Masters of all things paranoid schizophrenic when it comes to lock in schemes and copy protections. While you can work around some of the flaws in NetMD today, it is certainly an inconvenience, and who knows what the future will hold.

Oh, one other thing. I saw somebody say that the future of MD is strong based on the size of the market outside of the US. However, I am not convinced that it is a long-term solution these days. NetMD was a, in my opinion, failed attempt to counter the MP3 player explosion, and the original MD format is starting to show its age, not only in quality, but capacity. The single reason that I have doubts about the future of the format though, is that I have seen Sony's new direction in optical disc storage, and that is UMP, not MD. While MD will certainly last a while longer on sheer market inertia, I do think it will eventually be replaced by either MP3, or these new UMP discs.

Anyway, there you go. As I said at the beginning. I actually like MD. There is something unqualitatively fun about the format, least of all the looks you get in public. It is surprising just how little people are aware of it in the US. They see those little discs and think you have some futuristic thing, then when you tell them it is decade old tech, they scratch their heads. MD has its definite advantages in some cases. I would buy from a place that has a no-questions 30 day return policy. Get some media, and see how it works for you. If you don't like it, you can return the gear, and use the money to get a ton of new CDs to listen to.
smily_headphones1.gif


---

Oh one quick other thing, this is actually a pro. The only thing I still use my MD player for is something a lot of people forget about, being so far away from the distant realms of the tape culture. That is field recording! Get a powered microphone and make your own environment samplings.
 

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