[Thorsten Loesch]

The setup I have in mind is straightforward (for now). I am uploading below an illustration taken as a reference one posted by yours:

This setup will work.

I would recommend the shortest possible USB cable and leave the iPurifier out, it is not needed, if the cable is short.

That being said, now I wonder if putting another iPurifier on the iUSB 3.0 would make a difference

Not on the input side.

and if using another AudioQuest cable for the iUSB 3.0 instead of the one that comes by default (blue) would come with any improvement.

I cannot 100% exclude an improvement, but it is unlikely and unlikely sufficient VFM.

Another thing that just came to mind is how the ground loop switch really works.

It works by breaking the ground connection at low frequencies (Audio) in a safe way and keeps the connection in place for RF.

Could you clarify the use of that ground loop switch? I think im a bit lost. Do both switch positions eliminate the noise? Really?

Yes. They eliminate ground loop noise if a ground loop exists.

Regarding the Gemini cable, yes it’s that one you posted: https://ifi-audio.com/products/gemini3-0/ Will this one make a huge difference compared to another third-party solution like the AudioQuest Cinnamon cable I want to use?

The key is separation of audio and power and the use of much heavier gauge conductors for power than common USB cables. If the device receives power over USB, it is likely that a split cable like gemini (others exist) will give better results. Do not expect huge differences.

EDIT: Does the iUSB 3.0 work for hi-res players like the Sony NWZX507? Can I have the setup posted above with no compromises for this type of hi-res players?

The iUSB is in effect a high end audio focused USB Hub. If a generic USB hub will work, so will iUSB.

EDIT: I might have the chance of getting an iGalvanic 3.0 for the price of a brand new iPurifier 3. My concerns are: will the iGalvanic perform better than the iPurifier 3 on both pc and portable devices?

The IG is an ISOLATOR. It is only useful where ground loops exist. Where these exist it performs better than iUSB, where there are no ground loops, there is no benefit.

When chaining both iGalvanic and iUSB 3.0

This is unnecessary. Place the IG on the device input of the audio device, use a generic USB hub for your HDD.

what ground loop breaker switch position on both devices is recommended?

Whatever combination gives reliable USB connection and eliminates ground loop noise.

Could you clarify the use of these switches?

The setting depends on system context. There is no single "correct" setting for everyone, if there was the switch would be unnecessary.

Thor

 

[Assationater]

You cannot use a 5V supply.

The internal switching regulator needs more input voltage than output.

The output voltage is set nominally to 5.2v, which with worse case tolerances can be 5.3V (the USB specification allows 5.5V absolute max). To have reliable operation the input voltage must be 112% of output plus any losses, so assume at least 10% for that, so we need 122% of 5.3V as minimum, or 6.5V - as said, that is absolute minimum.

So 9V is a good compromise overall. You can easily use 12V or 15V. I cannot recommend 18V, it is possible the internal protection may engage, at worst case tolerance it,will trigger with around 17.5V.

With ifi iPower 9V you get 18VA.

The USB subsystem is limited to "Charging Downsteam Port" operation, so 2 X 1.5A is maximum (that is 15VA). Hence there is no simple way to use more power than can be supplied by the standard iPower.

As the standard iPower that was shipped with the iUSB has the lowest mains leakage, it is probably best to use this over the iPower Elite.

Unless the extra power of the iPower Plus / Elite is absolutely needed (with iUSB it cannot be used), the standards iPower is the best choice, or a low cost aliexpress linear supply, may be an even better choice.

Thor

Sorry could you explain to me why the ipower elite (much more expensive) wouldnt be better than the regular old ipower v1? Why would the v1 have less mains leakage and what does that impact?

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

Sorry could you explain to me why the ipower elite (much more expensive) wouldnt be better than the regular old ipower v1? Why would the v1 have less mains leakage and what does that impact?

First, price is not a reliable indicator of quality.

The iPower Plus and Elite (which are mostly identical except the case) are higher power designs.

In audio power supplies you have in effect the following figures of merit:

Peak current, this expresses how much current musical peaks can expect, many commercial "charger" type supplies have the sdmf peak current limit as they do continuous.

Dynamic impedance / pulse response, this expresses how much the power supply is affected by dynamic load changes.

Mains leakage noise, this is common mode noise and propagates throughout the whole system. The impact can be reduced through cabling, correct external grounding / earthing etc, but reducing this at the source is always better.

Differtial (audio) noise, I am listening this last, because in products designed for external power supply we generally have extra filtering internally, so while commonly promoted and advertised as the main figure of merit, it actually has commonly the least effect.

Now, in the case of the iUSB, the peak (or continuous) current delivery, once sufficient to support 15VA output across two outputs, more cutlrrent has no benefit.

As the impedance and noise on the actual 5V USB output is determined by the internal circuitry, differential noise from the power source is inconsequential.

The next point is mains noise leakage and for the iUSB it is the only metric that can actually cause audible or measurable differences.

The iPower Plus / Elite use an earthed circuit with a 3 pin mains connection. This can introduce extra earth loops that cannot be dealt with using the switches on hjf iUSB. It also has more earth leakage due to the much higher power.

So in the case of the iUSB the iPower Elite has no benefits to offer whatsoever and may actually degrade the system.

This is not a blanket statement that iPower is always better than Plus/Elite, but that where the standard iPower suffices, most of the time it is the better choice.

Price is not a meaningful metric in context to determine if the audible or measurable result will be better.

Thor

 

[Assationater]

This is not a blanket statement that iPower is always better than Plus/Elite, but that where the standard iPower suffices, most of the time it is the better choice.

Mostly agreed although in my expierence going from ipower v1 to v2 was a HUGE improvement, and ifi support claims its basically the same as v1 with slightly better components. The iusb power i was using v1 and v2 changes considerbly between power supplies, whether thats for the good or bad.

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

Mostly agreed although in my expierence going from ipower v1 to v2 was a HUGE improvement, and ifi support claims its basically the same as v1 with slightly better components. The iusb power i was using v1 and v2 changes considerbly between power supplies, whether thats for the good or bad.

I kinda lost track of different versions. Early ones saw some rapid iterations.

The stable version I comment on may be V2. At least how official versions go.

Inside, very early reasons used a main IC that lacked slope compensation, making it instable at low load currents, the definitive Version had a lot of changes, not just a main IC with slope compensation, but also reducing mains leakage and others.

Most iPower out there should be "definive V1" (likely what you know as V2) and later what I'd call V3 which switched completely to Chinese made main parts (earlier version used Fairchild/onsemi).

There is little diffence in performance between the definitive versions, but a big difference to the very early versions.

Thor

 

[pcsgcs]

This setup will work.

I would recommend the shortest possible USB cable and leave the iPurifier out, it is not needed, if the cable is short.

What’s the reason behind getting "the shortest possible USB"? So the shorter the cable the less interference or data loss will be, right? But what about all the reclocking, rebalancing that’s needed due to all the noisy circuits inside the pc motherboard that get translated to each usb port?

Not on the input side.

how so, could you ellaborate on that please?

I cannot 100% exclude an improvement, but it is unlikely and unlikely sufficient VFM.

VFM? whats that?

It works by breaking the ground connection at low frequencies (Audio) in a safe way and keeps the connection in place for RF.

i see.

Yes. They eliminate ground loop noise if a ground loop exists.

so, even if it doesnt exist, it will not degrade the audio signal, no?

The key is separation of audio and power and the use of much heavier gauge conductors for power than common USB cables. If the device receives power over USB, it is likely that a split cable like gemini (others exist) will give better results. Do not expect huge differences.

Interesting.

The iUSB is in effect a high end audio focused USB Hub. If a generic USB hub will work, so will iUSB.

Great. Not sure why the official iFi account couldn’t even answer this simple question, oh well...

The IG is an ISOLATOR. It is only useful where ground loops exist. Where these exist it performs better than iUSB, where there are no ground loops, there is no benefit.

Ok but as i said above, i am also interested in the reclocking, rebalancing, etc the device comes with.

This is unnecessary. Place the IG on the device input of the audio device, use a generic USB hub for your HDD.

Yeah but as i said, i plan to use it with a dap and most likely, with my daily smartphone. That’s why I was asking if the DAC + HDD combo will work or not. I will use USB Audio Player Pro as it currently is the best app for high fidelity audio on android.

Whatever combination gives reliable USB connection and eliminates ground loop noise.

got it.

The setting depends on system context. There is no single "correct" setting for everyone, if there was the switch would be unnecessary.

Thor

well, yes, but what i meant is for my scenerio where there is no ground loop, i use phone etc, which one would you recommend?

Also, thank you so much for taking your time to answer the threads from the devices you engineered even if you are not partnered with them anymore. It truly says a lot.

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

What’s the reason behind getting "the shortest possible USB"?

Short cables minimise degradation of signal integrity. Obviously something like the iPurifier has the shortest possible cable (the adapter does degrade signal integrity however).

The cable length where a range of effects become problematic relates to signal frequency and the speed of light in the cable. A rough calculation suggests that USB-2.0 High speed cables shorter than ~ 25cm are "short enough" to become mostly transparent.

So using a < 25cm long cable between iUSB 3.0 micro and iDSD will be "short enough".

But what about all the reclocking, rebalancing that’s needed due to all the noisy circuits inside the pc motherboard that get translated to each usb port?

That is what the iUSB 3.0 does and it actually does it better than iPurifier.

how so, could you ellaborate on that please?

The input side (from the PC) cannot be improved in a way that passes the iUSB, at least not using iPurifier.

All these devices (iPurifier, iUSB, iGalvanic) are in effect audiophile grade USB Hub's (better clocks, power supplies, careful PCB layout etc. - iGalvanic is additionally isolated) operated as "signal repeater". Signal Repeater means the repeater receives the USB signal, restores signal integrity and puts out the same signal.

What you want is ONE such device in the chain as close to the DAC (<= 25cm total cable length) as sensible.

Only if using very long cables (> 3m) from PC to the device adding more in line will be able to help. With normal (~1m) cables there is no point.

VFM? whats that?

Value For Money

so, even if it doesnt exist, it will not degrade the audio signal, no?

Correct. The iGalvanic is in effect an isolated USB Hub. The isolation is only needed if there is a ground loop.

Sadly, the iG does not allow power om the output side from an external PSU, despite me pushing for that. S&M did not want this feature as it would overlap with the iUSB. So it isolates the power from the USB input using a switching converter and the current on the USB outside is quite limited.

So the best use of the iG would be with an extra device that allows separate power to be supplied to the DAC. Again, place the iG as close to the DAC as possible.

Ok but as i said above, i am also interested in the reclocking, rebalancing, etc the device comes with.

The iUSB and iPurifier perform the same function minus isolation.

Yeah but as i said, i plan to use it with a dap and most likely, with my daily smartphone. That’s why I was asking if the DAC + HDD combo will work or not.

Yes, you can plug an SSD or a self powered SSD into the second port on the iUSB micro and get audio and access to the Hard Drive. I have actually used it that way before.

I will use USB Audio Player Pro as it currently is the best app for high fidelity audio on android.

I use that as well.

well, yes, but what i meant is for my scenerio where there is no ground loop, i use phone etc, which one would you recommend?

HDD, Phone & DAC -> iUSB 3.0. Standard iPower. Preferably 2nd hand.

iPhone needs a Camera Kit, preferably the one that allows charging. You can use the "power only" USB Socket to charge the phone while playing with a suitable cable.

A "split" USB Cable with very low resistance power section is recommended for iDSD micro, because of the way it draws power from the iUSB.

Thor

 

[Assationater]

Ive been trying to hunt down a 18awg ipower x 9v for my iusb 3.0, ifi's silent revisions are killing me

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

Ive been trying to hunt down a 18awg ipower x 9v for my iusb 3.0, ifi's silent revisions are killing me

Don't tell me they replaced the nice heavy gauge coaxial cable with cheap stuff?

Thor

 

[Assationater]

my ipower x 9v revision1.0 came with a 20awg unbraided cable. My ipower 2 5v comes with a braided 18awg cable and it sounds better to me, so im trying to get a 18awg ipower x. Ifi support doesnt seem to have much info on revision changes though...

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

my ipower x 9v revision1.0 came with a 20awg unbraided cable. My ipower 2 5v comes with a braided 18awg cable and it sounds better to me, so im trying to get a 18awg ipower x. Ifi support doesnt seem to have much info on revision changes though...

I do not think revisions on this were tracked against SN (if any when not sold separate). And yes, the heavier gauge wire often gives better results. Sad to see such a small but significant detail being changed, when the difference is cost is minimal.

Thor

 

[Assationater]

I do not think revisions on this were tracked against SN (if any when not sold separate). And yes, the heavier gauge wire often gives better results. Sad to see such a small but significant detail being changed, when the difference is cost is minimal.

Thor

I believe the ipower 2 actually came out after the ipower x. and by default came with a 18awg cable, so they changed the later ipower x's to 18awg too. Its interesting that the ipower 2 sounds better to me though. I really do hope i can find a 18awg ipower x and see if it sounds better then the ipower 2 XDD

 

[pcsgcs]

A rough calculation suggests that USB-2.0 High speed cables shorter than ~ 25cm are "short enough" to become mostly transparent.

interesting, this is quite a valuable knowledge, will have it in mind for future setups

That is what the iUSB 3.0 does and it actually does it better than iPurifier.

how much better though?? is it like 4x the performance compared to the iPurifier 3?

Signal Repeater means the repeater receives the USB signal, restores signal integrity and puts out the same signal.

i see

What you want is ONE such device in the chain as close to the DAC (<= 25cm total cable length) as sensible.

Only if using very long cables (> 3m) from PC to the device adding more in line will be able to help. With normal (~1m) cables there is no point.

got it

Sadly, the iG does not allow power om the output side from an external PSU, despite me pushing for that.

oh so it was in the plans, i actually got a hunch ifi would release something like this in the near future since these devices are almost all sold out.

S&M did not want this feature as it would overlap with the iUSB.

ah yes, marketing, imagine a world were you would compete with yourself through your own releases lol

So it isolates the power from the USB input using a switching converter and the current on the USB outside is quite limited.

what do you mean by "the current on the USB outside is quite limited."

So the best use of the iG would be with an extra device that allows separate power to be supplied to the DAC.

you mean like the portable dac i told you about, the earmen angel, having separate power and data usb inputs.

i also kinda regret now purchasing one with this summer sale, you could get it on ebay for like 450eur new, although i was quite unsure if it actually is worth it, i wish i could try it somewhere nearby my place but its impossible.

Again, place the iG as close to the DAC as possible.

by this you mean placing the iG same as an iPurifier 3

The iUSB and iPurifier perform the same function minus isolation.

ok but the iUSB being a larger device I’d expect it to give more "audible" improvement, am i wrong?

Yes, you can plug an SSD or a self powered SSD into the second port on the iUSB micro and get audio and access to the Hard Drive. I have actually used it that way before.

does this setup work for you when using the USB Audio Player Pro app? I tried connecting the iUSB 3.0 and only an HDD to see if I could browse the device for music and it disconnects the HDD power pretty quickly after an error shows up on screen if i recall correctly. The weird thing is, the app actually recognized the HDD (even its product name, i use a 1TB LaCie Porsche Drive) the first time plugging it in. By the way, is your HDD formatted to NTFS or FAT32?

HDD, Phone & DAC -> iUSB 3.0. Standard iPower. Preferably 2nd hand.

I have the original iPower that came with the device, the one you have to slide the pins of the plug into place

You can use the "power only" USB Socket to charge the phone while playing with a suitable cable.

right

A "split" USB Cable with very low resistance power section is recommended for iDSD micro,

So this one is the best option of all portable iDSD lineup. What’s the price you would recommend buying it for?

because of the way it draws power from the iUSB.

can you explain it briefly, just for curiosity

Thank you so much for your detailed responses.

 

[Assationater]

how much better though?? is it like 4x the performance compared to the iPurifier 3?

having owned ALOT of ifi purifers, from the idefender to isilencer to isub 3.0, id say that the difference between the ipurfier 3 and and iusb 3.0 is mostly in the 'meat' of and 'pure force' of the sound. As a stand alone powered unit, the iusb 3.0 outputs a '''powerful''' sound if this makes sense at all. I would say though, the ipurifer 3, being the latest revision of their usb reclocking has a more 'refined' tone and seems to leave less of its own sound signature. But all usb reclockers do change the usb sound, usually for the better.

 

[pcsgcs]

Oh and also, @Thorsten Loesch , how much difference do you reckon is between the iUSB 2.0 and iUSB 3.0?