[DLeeWebb]

The guy deserves his day in court. If he is found guilty of the behavior that he is being accused of he deserves to be punished to the fullest extent. I just hope this doesn't turn into an OJ-like situation where bumbling prosecution meets big bucks defense and a clearly guilty man walks. Look at the behavior of many of these overpaid, overly-pampered atheletes, movie stars, CEO's, politicians. Our culture awards these people with such material excess that they seem to have to look for their buzz to outrageous, antisocial, cruel activities. Abuse of animals is the lowest form of cruelty. Serial killers start their careers with such abuse and cruelty toward animals. I saw a representative of the NFL players association on television yesterday, and he actually said that Michael Vick should be concentrating on his upcoming football opponents, and some new offense that his team is initiating. He was implying that these charges were a "distraction." Are we witnessing "The Decline Of The 'Roman' Empire here?"

 

[recstar24]

DJ,

I think its a bit different with the Vick case than OJ. I have no idea who in their right mind would consider defending Vick in this case. It appears they have had a federal informant involved with his ring for quite a while, and have been building on this case for years enough to charge a federal indictment. I just read as well that the federal informant has been "good" on other claims and has led to previous convictions with other cases.

The tricky part is does Vick decide to be tried by Judge or Jury. America is such a dog-loving country I have a hard time believing a Jury of Americans could be created that wouldn't be overtly sensitive to the treatement of animals.

 

[beerguy0]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DLeeWebb /img/forum/go_quote.gif The guy deserves his day in court. If he is found guilty of the behavior that he is being accused of he deserves to be punished to the fullest extent. I just hope this doesn't turn into an OJ-like situation where bumbling prosecution meets big bucks defense and a clearly guilty man walks. Look at the behavior of many of these overpaid, overly-pampered atheletes, movie stars, CEO's, politicians. Our culture awards these people with such material excess that they seem to have to look for their buzz to outrageous, antisocial, cruel activities. Abuse of animals is the lowest form of cruelty. Serial killers start their careers with such abuse and cruelty toward animals. I saw a representative of the NFL players association on television yesterday, and he actually said that Michael Vick should be concentrating on his upcoming football opponents, and some new offense that his team is initiating. He was implying that these charges were a "distraction." Are we witnessing "The Decline Of The 'Roman' Empire here?"

This is nothing like the OJ case. The Feds don't bring charges unless they're pretty sure of a conviction. The indictment is detailed, and the cooperating witnesses seem to be pretty solid, especially in the instances of knowing where, and how many, dogs were buried. That's pretty solid evidence.

Vick certainly deserves his day in court, as does any person accused of any crime. But, given the Feds track record, and the strength of the indictment, things don't look good for Vick and company.

I also found it interesting that the Feds took over the investigation from the local authorities. Either the Feds thought they were dragging their feet, or they were getting too close to a case the Feds already had underway. The latter looks like it may be the case, based on the time span covered by the indictment.

 

[DLeeWebb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by beerguy0 /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is nothing like the OJ case. The Feds don't bring charges unless they're pretty sure of a conviction. The indictment is detailed, and the cooperating witnesses seem to be pretty solid, especially in the instances of knowing where, and how many, dogs were buried. That's pretty solid evidence. Vick certainly deserves his day in court, as does any person accused of any crime. But, given the Feds track record, and the strength of the indictment, things don't look good for Vick and company. I also found it interesting that the Feds took over the investigation from the local authorities. Either the Feds thought they were dragging their feet, or they were getting too close to a case the Feds already had underway. The latter looks like it may be the case, based on the time span covered by the indictment.

Please note: I said that "I hope this doesn't turn into an OJ-like situation..." I appreciate the detailed information on the investigation...

 

[elrod-tom]

I want to remind everyone that we don't do personal attacks around here. This is a controversial topic, and I'd like to see the thread not degenerate into a big flame war. Thanks....

 

[Shizelbs]

If guilty, which I would bet he is, I hope he gets a very firm and lengthy sentence. If even an ounce of what he did to those dogs is true, he is a very disgusting and stupid young, young man.

 

[FallenAngel]

Animal cruelty is sick in all forms, why so much news about this guy and his dogfighting?

Why does nobody care about hunting - you're still killing an animal for enjoyment.

What about the chicken, cow or pig you had for dinner, did it not die so you could eat something you want, so did it not die because you wanted something from it?

What about that squirrel you ran over with your car, why is it worse to kill one animal and "oh, it's ok" to kill another?

Yes, it is a nasty world where people have animals kill each other for their viewing pleasures, but humans do it much more to other humans for much the same reasons, and of course for other more "profitable" ones, but that's just the people in charge, the ones that do the killing still do it because they want to.

Great priorities the media has with making a big deal out of some killed dogs vs the tens of thousands of humans. I'm totally against making a huge deal about this kind of thing, press charges on the guy just like anybody else for doing the same thing, and keep it off my news, I don't give a ****. Unfortunately, this kind of stuff happens all the time, why is it more important when some football player does it?

 

[K2Grey]

Oh boy, watch the flames fly.

The answer is that in hunting it is generally a priority to kill the animal in, well, a not super drawn out process. In dogfighting, the dogs aren't magically teleported from somewhere into the ring, they are first gotten, trained to fight, etc...

Same reason why killing a person and engaging in lengthy torture are not considered equal on the moral spectrum.

As for why Vick gets more publicity, it is because he is more famous to begin with. You may not care about Vick, and for myself I have never heard of the person before this thread, but Vick gets more media publicity for dogfighting charges for the same reason why Clinton gets more publicity for his escapades than the normal man. If someone made a thread on head-fi about a person no one has ever heard of engaging in dogfighting, would that person in turn get this kind of attention? The media gives the populace this news because the populace cares about it.

Edit: Also, part of it is because the action reflects upon the person. An executioner who is cold about his work and an executioner who takes great pleasure in dealing out death may be doing the same act, but you would naturally care less for the latter person.

 

[DLeeWebb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by K2Grey /img/forum/go_quote.gif Oh boy, watch the flames fly. The answer is that in hunting it is generally a priority to kill the animal in, well, a not super drawn out process. In dogfighting, the dogs aren't magically teleported from somewhere into the ring, they are first gotten, trained to fight, etc... Same reason why killing a person and engaging in lengthy torture are not considered equal on the moral spectrum. As for why Vick gets more publicity, it is because he is more famous to begin with. You may not care about Vick, and for myself I have never heard of the person before this thread, but Vick gets more media publicity for dogfighting charges for the same reason why Clinton gets more publicity for his escapades than the normal man. If someone made a thread on head-fi about a person no one has ever heard of engaging in dogfighting, would that person in turn get this kind of attention? The media gives the populace this news because the populace cares about it. Edit: Also, part of it is because the action reflects upon the person. An executioner who is cold about his work and an executioner who takes great pleasure in dealing out death may be doing the same act, but you would naturally care less for the latter person.

No flames here...well said...

 

[beerguy0]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FallenAngel /img/forum/go_quote.gif Animal cruelty is sick in all forms, why so much news about this guy and his dogfighting? Why does nobody care about hunting - you're still killing an animal for enjoyment.

There is a larger issue involved with hunting. The animals that are typically hunted, like deer and elk, have fewer natural predators since the wolves were hunted out. (This is especially true on the East coast). Deer populations, especially in the Eastern US, where I live, number in the millions. If deer hunting was banned tomorrow, how long do you think it would be before we were literally overrun with deer? The land can only support a certain number of deer. Hunters have to take the place of the wolves, at least to some degree. You may not like hunting, but it serves a purpose. Smaller herds are healthier and less disease prone, plus we have fewer deer/vehicle collisions and less crop damage.

Note: I am not a hunter, nor have I ever hunted. I know many hunters, and without exception, they always go for the clean shot and quick kill. No real hunter wants to see an animal suffer, blundering through the woods until it bleeds to death. All of them use the meat. I don't know a single hunter that hunts just for sport.

Quote:

Great priorities the media has with making a big deal out of some killed dogs vs the tens of thousands of humans. I'm totally against making a huge deal about this kind of thing, press charges on the guy just like anybody else for doing the same thing, and keep it off my news, I don't give a ****. Unfortunately, this kind of stuff happens all the time, why is it more important when some football player does it?

Because, as already stated, Vick is famous. Also, athletes are looked up to by our children. Do you want your children to look up to someone who tortures animals for fun?

 

[TheBicFlic]

Alright, understand when I say this I still think everything Vick did was wrong.

But, after reading thru the indictment, it never actually says he killed a dog. He sponsored their fighting, which is killing them, I understand that. But, he never "shot, drowned, slammed their bodies against the ground, hung, or electrocuted them." If fact, it only says he was talked to about one of the killings. He was involved in the fights, and that is sick and wrong, but I think he had more of a minor part (I have a feeling he was mostly the money).

And, as I said in the other thread, dog fighting is different than hunting. In dog fighting it is a human training a dog to be unnatural, to be merciless, and to kill others. Deer hunting is, at least in my area, getting rid of a pest that is quite a pain. I myself do not hunt, I could not bring myself to kill such an animal, but I understand the importance of it. I also enjoy a slab of venison myself.

And beerguy, I can see what you are saying with the children, but I really think that most kids are going to be completely turned off to the thought of killing dogs. You really have to be messed up to do that, and if they look up to it they probably already had a bad future.

 

[Tuberoller]

Uh, I still don't get all the complete hysteria surrounding this. I took the time to read this indictment and it looks like the best evidence the feds have is a single witness. No tapes, no hard physical evidence of his presence at or participation in a dogfight and the witness they have testified in two previous drug cases (one involving his own ex-wife). One of those previous cases was pretty much a lost cause until the FBI decided to charge one of the dealers with Dogfighting. So the best evidence they have is the eye witness testimony of a suspected drug dealer and dogfighting participant. If that makes him credible, I'm truly afraid.

Vick has not been convicted and has yet to be tried. The locals had all the same evidence and declined to charge him. To make statements like "The feds wouldn't charge him if they didn't have a great case" is really jumping to conclusions. How many dozens of times have we all seen and heard of the FBI bringing cases with weak evidence? How would you like to charged with a federal offense based on the testimony of a single person? Better yet, how would you like to be fired from your job simply for being charged with a crime without ever having been tried or convicted? If he participated in or had any knowledge of dogfighting, then he should certainly be punished according to the law. The previous case of the drug dealer convicted of dogfighting ( on federal charges) resulted in 60 days jail time, probation and a fine. He served 28 and paid $7,500. This is like charging Al Capone with tax evasion ( but it worked). If Vick is convicted, I doubt he'd get any serious jail time.

I also think it is abject silliness refer to all life as the same. How could any sane person possibly consider any animal life the same as any human life? (I'm really asking this question). We eat and harvest animals for products that we use everyday. We value the lives of animals but we cherish the lives of humans. I understand the emotion involved in this, especially by animal lovers and advocates but at the same time I'm confused by the intensity of that emotion.

BTW, by legal definition, you can only "murder" another human.

 

[WhatMACHI]

Sigh. There are always sick human beings out there.

I dont see how someone can take satisfaction in seeing animals tear each other apart, and then execute them in various sadistic fashions when they arent "worthy" to fight anymore.

 

[Redo]

Horrible, just horrible. This isn't killing animals, this is animal torture. From what I've read and have heard, this isn't a BS charge to nail a big name target. This is the real deal, he's gonna go down.

While I personally Bull Fighting should be banned, but the running of the bulls isn't so bad (besides the killing), this goes even a step beyond. Plus it keeps putting pit bulls in a very bad focus, which is a GREAT breed of dog. They just are the most vicious when starved, and brought up for blood, and tortured.

Slamming the dog to the ground until it dies, horrible. Pouring water on the animal then electrocuting it, absurd. Not only that, but this promotes the behavior more and more, this needs to be addressed and ended.

 

[bhd812]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuberoller /img/forum/go_quote.gif Uh, I still don't get all the complete hysteria surrounding this. I took the time to read this indictment and it looks like the best evidence the feds have is a single witness. No tapes, no hard physical evidence of his presence at or participation in a dogfight and the witness they have testified in two previous drug cases (one involving his own ex-wife). One of those previous cases was pretty much a lost cause until the FBI decided to charge one of the dealers with Dogfighting. So the best evidence they have is the eye witness testimony of a suspected drug dealer and dogfighting participant. If that makes him credible, I'm truly afraid. Vick has not been convicted and has yet to be tried. The locals had all the same evidence and declined to charge him. To make statements like "The feds wouldn't charge him if they didn't have a great case" is really jumping to conclusions. How many dozens of times have we all seen and heard of the FBI bringing cases with weak evidence? How would you like to charged with a federal offense based on the testimony of a single person? Better yet, how would you like to be fired from your job simply for being charged with a crime without ever having been tried or convicted? If he participated in or had any knowledge of dogfighting, then he should certainly be punished according to the law. The previous case of the drug dealer convicted of dogfighting ( on federal charges) resulted in 60 days jail time, probation and a fine. He served 28 and paid $7,500. This is like charging Al Capone with tax evasion ( but it worked). If Vick is convicted, I doubt he'd get any serious jail time. I also think it is abject silliness refer to all life as the same. How could any sane person possibly consider any animal life the same as any human life? (I'm really asking this question). We eat and harvest animals for products that we use everyday. We value the lives of animals but we cherish the lives of humans. I understand the emotion involved in this, especially by animal lovers and advocates but at the same time I'm confused by the intensity of that emotion. BTW, by legal definition, you can only "murder" another human.

QFT!
I read that a dude got like 40years sentence from the Dog on Dog action..not sure what the details where