[tom hankins]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icenine2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I do prefer speakers. However............trying to get a speaker high-end rig to sound as good as a pair of HD800's, T1's etc paired w/a great amp is going to be serious dollars. You could spend say $6,000 on a totally killer system: T1's ($1,000) + Amp, you pick ($2,000), Ayre QB-9 ($2,500), add $500 for interconnects and a cool headphone stand. It would take say at least a multiple of two (I'd go NAD M2-$6,000 integrated w/DAC-new paradigm says Stereophile), Speakers-you choose ($8,000), interconnects $2,000. You still don't have a stand and er..........a dedicated room! Reality time is headphones for me. Your mileage may vary. Wife (hates the stereo big rig w/floating speakers in the room), kids (if they are little there is danger lurking for them and you...take your pick of pancakes in transports, speakers toppled-happened to me more than once, etc., neighbors (unless you live on a farm these are always an issue unless you're in some sort of subterranean man-cave that never sees the light of day. Headphones worst case is someone taps me on the shoulder and scares the bejesus out me. K

Unless you are only spending under 5-6 hundred bucks, IMO It is easy to get better sound through a speaker system than headphones. I would take a system consisting of Maggie 1.7s ($2K), NAD 375bee ($1.2K), Rega Apollo ($1K) $500 for cables over the system you listed above. And it is less $$$.
BTW, most people listening to speakers DONT have a dedicated room.

 

[jp11801]

The maggies are spectacular and for the $2K smoke most headphones. I heard them with a very modest outlaw el34 (god I hate these tubes) and it sounded great. I love headphones for extending my listening both in time (late night and early am) and in place but speakers really are better.

That said though you really need to consider the room if you are not going to listen near field. My speakers went from so so to outstanding with the addition of GIK sound panels.

 

[mark_h]

O2 and amp = 5400 euro

Quad ESL-63 = 1000 to 2000
Quad II 40 = 2000
Quad QC-24 pre = 1000

total for world/reference class speaker setup = 4000-4500 euro

If you have the space its a no brainer!

Quad are the fine gentleman of the UK HiFi industry! They still service all their products!

 

[markmaxx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hankins /img/forum/go_quote.gif Unless you are only spending under 5-6 hundred bucks, IMO It is easy to get better sound through a speaker system than headphones. I would take a system consisting of Maggie 1.7s ($2K), NAD 375bee ($1.2K), Rega Apollo ($1K) $500 for cables over the system you listed above. And it is less $$$. BTW, most people listening to speakers DONT have a dedicated room.

I gave up on the speakers, because of apartment life. But the Meridian 808.2i sure sounds good with the HD 800. (the money was burning a hole in my paypal account)
Tom you have to be kidding us $500.00 in cables??? Surely the money would be better spent somewhere else,,,no? (friendly,,inside voice, with a hint of sarcasm.)

 

[edstrelow]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark_h /img/forum/go_quote.gif O2 and amp = 5400 euro Quad ESL-63 = 1000 to 2000 Quad II 40 = 2000 Quad QC-24 pre = 1000 total for world/reference class speaker setup = 4000-4500 euro If you have the space its a no brainer! Quad are the fine gentleman of the UK HiFi industry! They still service all their products!

You are also mixing up new vs used and pretty old equipment.

I don't think the originator of this thread woud need to start at the top of the line Stax. Many older units such as Sigmas and Lambdas will perform at the level of these Quads and have more extended bass and treble to boot.

 

[n3rdling]

No headphone comes close to performing at the level of Quads IMO

 

[minimus]

The claim that at any budget above $500-600, one can get better sound from a speaker rig than a headphone rig of the same price seems ludicrous to me. If that is the case, why are headphone-related audio items the only growing segment in the audio market, while 2-channel stereo is in a constant state of decline? Why is Head-fi the most active audio forum on the web? For this to be the case, one would have to assume that headphone enthusiasts are both deaf and dumb.

Excluding source, a headphone rig consists of two components, headphones and a headphone amp, and a lot of very good headphones are inexpensive (i.e. HD650s can be bought used for $200-250). A speaker rig consists of speakers, speaker cables, a power amp, a preamp, and an extra set of interconnects. Even if you buy used, the shipping costs of the components in a speaker rig are quite high because they are generally very heavy. In general, I don't think one can develop a "mind blowing" speaker rig for less than $10K (excluding source). You would have a hard time spending that much money to obtain the best headphone rigs on the market today.

But if someone wants to trade me their Omega 2 or Zana Deux setup for some Quads and a NAD integrated, please send me a PM.

 

[mulveling]

Quote:

Originally Posted by minimus /img/forum/go_quote.gif The claim that at any budget above $500-600, one can get better sound from a speaker rig than a headphone rig of the same price seems ludicrous to me.

As a whole, there's been WAY more R&D put into speakers than headphones. Better materials and manufacturing, too. There's a much richer used market, with yesteryear's classics and top dogs sometimes offered at huge discounts.
Quote:

If that is the case, why are headphone-related audio items the only growing segment in the audio market, while 2-channel stereo is in a constant state of decline? Why is Head-fi the most active audio forum on the web? For this to be the case, one would have to assume that headphone enthusiasts are both deaf and dumb.

Why are sales of PDPs exploding relative to traditional hifi sources? Headphone rigs are simple, easy. You don't have to ship - and then fit in your home - huge speakers & amps. You don't have to worry about disturbing neighbors/roommates. No worries about room acoustics.

You might need more gear - but not necessarily if you go for an integrated/receiver. You'll have to be open to buying used, possibly vintage gear - which might further require some minor restoration work. You DO have to worry a lot about room acoustics and proper setup. There's a lot more sonic variety to the speaker gear out there - more shades or awful, higher peaks of performance, tons more reviews to thoroughly confuse the bejeesus out of anyone with too much free time.

Overall, I completely agree with Tom. Past $600 I think it's entirely feasible that a speaker rig can be constructed to exceed any headphone rig in overall stereo sound quality & enjoyment. It is however, not going to be easy on the lower end of that budget. It'll take a certain person with the knowledge and time to put it all together. Solid DIY skills wouldn't hurt either. It gets easier as budget increases, but there will always be the pros/cons of the massive variety for offer in the speaker market.

 

[mrarroyo]

You would have to get mighty lucky to put a top notch speaker system for $500-$600. Plus you may have to look for a long time to increase your chance of achieving it. Perhaps w/ a '70s Marantz receiver, a Technics SL1200, a few used IC's, a cartridge on close out, and if lucky you are up to $350 or so with $250 for a good set of speakers. Or instead of a turntable/cartridge you could go w/ an used cd-player by Marantz, Sony, or similar.

 

[jax]

Even against a world-class headphone rig, I would choose my speaker system every single time. If it weren't for the need to keep my music 'private' sometimes to not disturb my wife, I wouldn't even bother with headphones. There is not contest. That said, I enjoy headphones for what they can do very well (intimacy, detail, clarity), but to me the experience is still entirely artificial to have the music confined and contained to your head. If you're looking for input on speakers you might want to check the forums on Audiogon and AudioAsylum among others, rather than a forum dedicated to headphone listening (no offense to anyone - just more information and a wider diversity of it there...just as I'd suggest anyone there looking for the 411 on headphones come here).

 

[jax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by minimus /img/forum/go_quote.gif The claim that at any budget above $500-600, one can get better sound from a speaker rig than a headphone rig of the same price seems ludicrous to me. If that is the case, why are headphone-related audio items the only growing segment in the audio market, while 2-channel stereo is in a constant state of decline? Why is Head-fi the most active audio forum on the web? For this to be the case, one would have to assume that headphone enthusiasts are both deaf and dumb. Excluding source, a headphone rig consists of two components, headphones and a headphone amp, and a lot of very good headphones are inexpensive (i.e. HD650s can be bought used for $200-250). A speaker rig consists of speakers, speaker cables, a power amp, a preamp, and an extra set of interconnects. Even if you buy used, the shipping costs of the components in a speaker rig are quite high because they are generally very heavy. In general, I don't think one can develop a "mind blowing" speaker rig for less than $10K (excluding source). You would have a hard time spending that much money to obtain the best headphone rigs on the market today. But if someone wants to trade me their Omega 2 or Zana Deux setup for some Quads and a NAD integrated, please send me a PM.

On the used market, for $500-800 there are all kinds of wonderful speakers available that are not difficult to drive well. Silverline, Soliloquy, Vandersteen, Klipsch Heritage, just to name a few. IME there are without any doubt, and most certainly speaker rigs way under $10K that are far more enjoyable than listening to the best headphones out there. BUT - As someone indicated already, the comparison of the experience is apples to oranges. If you like headphone listening then by all means, stick with it! Listening to speakers is not the same (to me it is much better, but I understand that to others this is not necessarily the case). I could put together a great rig for $2k (and have) that would impress the hell out of most music lovers. My personal favorite bang-for buck direction is vintage Klipsch Heritage speakers which can be had for a song, and a decent tube integrated amp, or separates. Here's a $2k+ suggestion on the used market:

Klipsch Cornwall's ($700-850) - Large so best to find a local pair
Quicksilver Mini Mite monos ($600-700)
Cary SLP50A Preamp ($550-700)

This setup in a decent sized room will take no prisoners and be quite versatile in what music you feed it. I would certainly call this rig a 'colored' setup, but I am particularly fond of the combination of horns and tubes, especially high-sensitivity horns and a good SET rig, but that would be more expensive and less versatile IMO/IME.

I could definitely put together more neutral rigs in the same price bracket that most people would see no need to improve upon (not that everyone here qualify as "most people"). Some good suggestions have already been made (interesting that preferences here run towards electrostatics and panels of various sorts - I thought I'd provide an alternative though I haven't gone through all 10 pages of this thread).

 

[minimus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrarroyo /img/forum/go_quote.gif You would have to get mighty lucky to put a top notch speaker system for $500-$600. Plus you may have to look for a long time to increase your chance of achieving it. Perhaps w/ a '70s Marantz receiver, a Technics SL1200, a few used IC's, a cartridge on close out, and if lucky you are up to $350 or so with $250 for a good set of speakers. Or instead of a turntable/cartridge you could go w/ an used cd-player by Marantz, Sony, or similar.

Well said...you have to be more lucky in putting together a speaker rig than in putting together a headphone rig. (I think Mulveling made the same point about luck in not being misled by reviews and impressions, etc.)

The final cost of your speaker rig may be only $600 or (more realistically) $2000, but there is a good chance you made mistakes in arriving at that system, and had to trade gear, sometimes at a loss and almost always incurring shipping costs, to arrive at the "dream" rig.

I do enjoy my speaker rig now more than my headphone rig by a large margin, but my speaker rig cost me far more than my headphone rig, and it took more iterations to arrive at why I consider to be an optimal setup for my needs.

Sure, you can name a cheap speaker setup that sounds fantastic to you. But I have heard the supposedly sublime SET-based systems put together by friends and couldn't get over the impression that the drummer sounded like he was whacking a cardboard box rather than a drum kit. I have also spent a lot of time at Sound By Singer listening to well-reviewed but highly revealing speakers from Audio Physics, DeVore, and Gallo that induce (in me) a splitting headache within about five minutes. So, keep in mind that what you are recommending, what gets a lot of positive buzz on Audiogon or Audioasylum, what gets great professional reviews, may not be satisfying to everyone. (Try, for example, to read a thread on Class D amps to see how wide the distribution of impressions can be.) I have been less misled in my excursions in building my headphone setup than in building my speaker rig.

Finally, I cannot buy the argument that headphone listeners are just less discerning than speaker fans because iPods sell like hot cakes while SET amps sit unsold on Audiogon. ("The proles don't know that the iPod and MP3s are crap...music is best heard through tube amps and horn speakers") Instead, I think that the intimate "in your head" experience that some of you say is unnatural is actually quite natural to most young people (<40) because it is the standard way they have listened to music throughout their lives. If headphones are the preferred way to listen to music for most people, the desire to buy dedicated headphone amps, more expensive headphones, and higher resolution music files reflects a valid desire to improve that "in your head" experience. I think that desire, not mass delusion, accounts for the growth in the headphone market and the popularity of this site relative to other audio forums.

 

[jax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by minimus /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well said...you have to be more lucky in putting together a speaker rig than in putting together a headphone rig. (I think Mulveling made the same point about luck in not being misled by reviews and impressions, etc.)

I've found headphone rigs that are poorly assembled, or playing poor source material FAR FAR less forgiving on my ears than poorly assembled speaker systems. You are piping the music directly into your ears and everything is laid buck naked. You hear the bad and the good in all its glory. Nothing could be less forgiving.

Quote:

Originally Posted by minimus /img/forum/go_quote.gif The final cost of your speaker rig may be only $600 or (more realistically) $2000, but there is a good chance you made mistakes in arriving at that system, and had to trade gear, sometimes at a loss and almost always incurring shipping costs, to arrive at the "dream" rig.

I've bought and sold for years and managed to always break even or incur very minimal losses as long as buying on the used market and buying smart from reputable sellers. In general though, I agree that it takes more effort specifically for speakers which are larger and heavier than anything in the headphone realms. I quite enjoyed the process and the learning though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by minimus /img/forum/go_quote.gif I do enjoy my speaker rig now more than my headphone rig by a large margin, but my speaker rig cost me far more than my headphone rig, and it took more iterations to arrive at why I consider to be an optimal setup for my needs.

I can confidently say that I've enjoyed virtually every speaker system that I've put together better than any headphone rig I've ever heard. Again, apples to oranges though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by minimus /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sure, you can name a cheap speaker setup that sounds fantastic to you. But I have heard the supposedly sublime SET-based systems put together by friends and couldn't get over the impression that the drummer sounded like he was whacking a cardboard box rather than a drum kit.

Since you are following my post that mentions this, I will respond directly: I can name half a dozen or more speaker systems besides the one I did that would sound great. I've helped many friends set up systems who also happened to think they sounded great. But it is indeed entirely subjective as to what you prefer and I really don't think getting very good sound from a relatively small investment is really that difficult in the speaker world. Sorry to hear your SET impressions were less than optimal. Assembling a really good SET system is much more tricky than most other alternative topologies and it does not serve all music equally well. It is a different "SET" than headphone users may think of when a Woo WA6SE comes to mind...driving dynamic loudspeakers with only a few watts of power is a different ballgame. But if you are a fan of the music it is best suited for, it is worth the effort. I used a pair of 8 watt SET monoblocks for about 6 years and loved that sound. Ultimately I've chosen to go with a more versatile approach.

Quote:

Originally Posted by minimus /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have also spent a lot of time at Sound By Singer listening to well-reviewed but highly revealing speakers from Audio Physics, DeVore, and Gallo that induce (in me) a splitting headache within about five minutes. So, keep in mind that what you are recommending, what gets a lot of positive buzz on Audiogon or Audioasylum, what gets great professional reviews, may not be satisfying to everyone. (Try, for example, to read a thread on Class D amps to see how wide the distribution of impressions can be.) I have been less misled in my excursions in building my headphone setup than in building my speaker rig.

Again, it's highly subjective. Speakers or headphones. I've read lots of descriptions of either one that I could not find agreement with. My suggestion for the other forums was pretty well qualified. I was not suggesting anyone "knows" either one better, just that there are forums that are specifically targeted at a more speaker-centric user-base, just as this headphone-centric. You can pick any subject, speaker, or headphone...class D amps or Grado GS1000's, and find dozens of opinions all shades of the rainbow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by minimus /img/forum/go_quote.gif Finally, I cannot buy the argument that headphone listeners are just less discerning than speaker fans because iPods sell like hot cakes while SET amps sit unsold on Audiogon. ("The proles don't know that the iPod and MP3s are crap...music is best heard through tube amps and horn speakers") Instead, I think that the intimate "in your head" experience that some of you say is unnatural is actually quite natural to most young people (<40) because it is the standard way they have listened to music throughout their lives. If headphones are the preferred way to listen to music for most people, the desire to buy dedicated headphone amps, more expensive headphones, and higher resolution music files reflects a valid desire to improve that "in your head" experience. I think that desire, not mass delusion, accounts for the growth in the headphone market and the popularity of this site relative to other audio forums.

iPods sell like hotcakes because they are an affordable, mass-market commodity. SET amps are far from that and are very difficult to implement well into a system...they are a very specialized, even eccentric... in some ways an acquired taste. Headphones are popular for many reasons, not just one. They are far more affordable than a speaker rig, allow one to listen privately, and provide an entirely different listening experience than speakers provide that some may prefer. Having music fill my ears and head has very little similarity to the way I actually experience those sounds being performed at a venue. It is the isolation that is un-natural for me.

 

[melomaniac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hankins /img/forum/go_quote.gif Unless you are only spending under 5-6 hundred bucks, IMO It is easy to get better sound through a speaker system than headphones. I would take a system consisting of Maggie 1.7s ($2K), NAD 375bee ($1.2K), Rega Apollo ($1K) $500 for cables over the system you listed above. And it is less $$$. BTW, most people listening to speakers DONT have a dedicated room.

Everywhere I listen to music, I try to make sure it's dedicated listening But yes, Maggies are wonderful (and I'm right now blasting the neighbors with the angelic and bombastic Verdi Requiem), yet sometimes headphones offer something different: intricate detail, total focus, and sometimes, when the mood is right, painfully loud volume

 

[orkney]

Horses for courses. My old Quad setup (909/988) was easily more satisfying overall than even my best and priciest headphone rigs, and a whole lot comfier, and so is my current and much downsized Sugden/Harbeth combo. But I have two lads under four and a totally inflexible "character" house, and my HPs allow me access to music more at the time and in the place of my choosing, and at the office. If I could, I'd listen to the speaker setup a lot more. But I caint. Hence the headphones. So it goes.

best,

o