[lan]

Mind numbing movie. One thing I'm clueless about is the role of Persephone and her having to kiss Neo. The way I see things,

The Architect is like a self tuning program trying to make things better and more optimized. The outcomes are always predictable that's why he and the Oracle can predict what's going to happen. There are programs running around old and new but the Architect and Oracle are old ones.

Neo is in his latest revision. He's different / focused though not on many people but love for Trinity.

Agent Smith is relativly new. Remember in the first Matrix when he was talking to Morpheus, he mentioned just 2 other Matrixes.

The Keyholder and that french speaking guy were old programs.

Some programs were not wanted and hunted by other programs for deletion. Agent Smith and Keyholder in are cases of this.

I think the relation between Agent Smith and Neo is that they are both powerful hackers / anomalies. So powerful they can hack each other's worlds without being in the Matrix. When Agent Smith copied himself and went through the phone, he hacked that other guy's brain. When Neo at the end stopped the machines, he also wasn't directly plugged in.

Wasn't it this hacked guy that tried to stab Neo with the knife when he was walking with Trinity and Morpheus to leave? Or the one who used the EMP to disable many of the human's ships and he is that lone survivor? I think he's a person programmed / controlled by a brain hack. Insane.

Also how else can Neo dream that Trinity gets shot in the beginning if he's in the real world? He has to have some kind of power already in this real world.

I'm not sure why Agent Smith is fighting Neo though. In the first Matrix he said he wanted to be freed from the stench being around the humans. Now he IS free but maybe not in the way he wanted to be because he's hunted. Hewas hacked / displaced in the first movie but not deleted. This fact changed / corrupted him somehow. I'm not sure who's side he's on... but obviously there's more than 2 sides. There are programs fighting programs.

In the end, Zion is not destroyed. They just leave the Matrix and their ship gets attacked and destroyed. Somehow they find their way back to Zion where Neo is in a coma. In 24 hours they have to make a decision since the war isn't over. The prophecy Morpheus was hoping for didn't come true since Neo reached the mainframe / source and the war wasn't over. I think Morpheus was thinking Neo could hack the Matrix from within the Matrix.

24 hours doesn't make sense to me because I thought the sentinals were only like 9 hours away. I think the war should end in the real world.

Oh one last thing, the symbios of man and machine. It's mentioned in conversation between Neo and the Counselor. I saw that as a perspective from man and perspective from the Architect later is from the machine's.

wow i wrote a lot

 

[wallijonn]

Holy Star Wars II unhappy ending, Batman! <collective groan>

at the end, the person who is also in a coma is the guy from the first episode who said, "I know that this steak isn't real, but it tastes real..." He was the person who turned traitor and killed the good guys and tried to kill Trinity and Neo.

The agent guy who went through the telephone was the person who also tried to kill Neo with the knife, if not for their turning around when the kid he saved gave him the silver spoon. Do you remember the spoon from the first episode?

The mystic words were correct, but I expected more from Neo. He still has not learned to change into nature (wind / water/ fire / earth). It would have added a much better flavour to the whole meaning of the Matrix.

The Matrix has a green tinge.

Zion is not destroyed. That is where it left off. He must save Zion, now, so that he can save Trinity, also. If Zion is destroyed, so is his lover, and therefore his love.

I was impressed with how he saved Trinity, but thought it could have been done better. He basically bought life back to the construct. The construct bought life back to the real Trinity.

Causation is a myth. I thought that part was bogus.

At the end, I had to ask myself why Neo didn't spit in half, make a double, and go through both doors at the same time. After all, Smith was able to replicate himself. And there were hundreds of Neos on the screens. As reality changed, Neo went from one screen to another. Each screen was a different parallel universe, in effect. He could have gone into them all, at the same time, into all of his earlier failures, and merged them all into one consciousness and purpose. Each one could then go through both doors. Remember when he first goes into the room with the architect? They all look the same. Then the architect showed him different episodes from his life.

Smith is connected to Neo because Neo went into his body and split it in two. Smith now knew that he could die. That epipatny opened new possibilities to him.

Neo is the sixth, because it was the sixth time that the play was being looped. All the other times he was but different variations of all the other 5 before him. Each time through he learns something else, each time he ultimately has a different epiphany, which changes his programming. (Re-incarnation at it's best).

The corridors were but the dregs of programming, the trash can before it gets deleted, but can't be deleted, echoes of code discarded but that can not be destroyed, because once created they can not be uncreated, because the knowedge of what went wrong was applied to a new construct, and therefore the thread is connected to that which was deleted, but not erased.

The oracle is not the one, nor the two. It is the pre-fetch instruction to the cache of memory. In the first movie Neo is given a choice between the blue pill and the red pill. She popped a red pill and so did Neo. "I just love candy," she said.

I expected the navigator's wife to be the traitor.

I was surprised that Neo didn't take the third choice - to kill the architect. (or the 4th choice as state above). Or the 5th choice - to do nothing. Or the 6th choice to put the key back into the lock in the door behind him.

Did the keyholder give him the key he made for Neo, or his own key which he had around his neck? Were they the same key?

So who played Niobe? She looks real familiar but I can't place her. It wasn't Tyson's ex-wife nor Will Smith's wife. She reminded me of the girl who played opposite "Trudy" (i know it wasn't "Different Strokes")

In the first episode, Neo grows weary of the game and says, "No. No. No more" and stops the bullets in mid aire. Why then did he not make the same choice this time. Or as 'War Games's' computer said, "The only choice was to not to play the game. The only choice was to not make a choice. Just as Smith implied that Neo existed to know everything, Neo could have decided to know nothing. He could have changed his programming into a new program which exists beyond the control of the Matrix. He could then have replicated his new program so many times that it would have taken all the system's resources and caused it to crash. In effect he could have been a new virus which would cause the Matrix to have less and less system resources to the point where it would stop running because there would be no more memory for it to reside in. With the collapse of the Matrix, the control of the machines would stop dead in their tracks, and the humans would have won. They then would all come out of their cocoons and destroy the machines, physically.

To destroy the Matrix, he would have to go into everyone's mind while they rested in their cocoons. He would have had to wake them all up.

And that's why he's now in a coma. What is he seeing while in the coma? All the stars and galaxies of the universe.

as I said, as a metaphysist, I was disappointed. I did like the religious overtones, though. I just wish he would have ripped the hearts (or brains) out of all the Smiths as he fought them. If he flew into the previous Smith, why didn't he fly into them all?

personally, I feel that Neo is the "One". Just like Morpheus said. But Morpheus was saying that he was the one 'saviour'. Neo is the one who constructed the Matrix program.

yeah, this looks like the type of movie which you have to see more than once. I'll wait a few days, though. I want the crowds to lessen so that I can get the best seat in the house - 10th row on the 50 yard line.

 

[PeterG]

Quote:

Originally posted by wallijonn Holy Star Wars II unhappy ending, Batman! <collective groan> at the end, the person who is also in a coma is the guy from the first episode who said, "I know that this steak isn't real, but it tastes real..." He was the person who turned traitor and killed the good guys and tried to kill Trinity and Neo. So who played Niobe? She looks real familiar but I can't place her. It wasn't Tyson's ex-wife nor Will Smith's wife. She reminded me of the girl who played opposite "Trudy" (i know it wasn't "Different Strokes")

The guy that said that in the first one is Cypher. He is dead. . Tank fried him in real life with the same gun Cypher used to kill Dozer. The facial hair just makes them look alike. How did tank die BTW?!?

Will Smith's wife plays Niobe.

 

[wallijonn]

thanks, Peter.

damn, she sure filled out nice.

i thought the nightclub / dance scene was reminescent of Blade.

at least I enjoyed Morpheus' performance better than I did in Star Wars 1 and 2. I thought the orator scene was great.

on the 'official' Matrix site, ttp://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/ , there is an interesting article on Gnostism and Buddhism: http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.co...il_wakeup.html

 

[PeterG]

The twins should have been in it more. They made a great sound when they phased in/out. At first I also confused Cypher and the other guy "bane", two sketchy guys with facial hair... I watched the Matrix right before and I must say, the first matrix feels completely different. I'll definetly have to see reloaded again this weekend, patch things togother. Niobe's hair was GREAT.

 

[vrao81]

Yeah what happened to Tank! He was so cool!
I liked him better than the guy they replaced him with!

 

[PeterG]

yeah. Not to say he was all bad. He had some one-liners that made me chuckle.

 

[wallijonn]

Peter,

Nona Gaye?

man, i'm going to see it again just to see the credits and the preview.

 

[PeterG]

Nona Gaye? Who was she? The hair comment was about Niboe. I'm upset about missing the preview for Revolutions, but it does give me an excuse to go back and see it again tomorrow

 

[AIM9x]

Quote:

Originally posted by wallijonn So who played Niobe? She looks real familiar but I can't place her. It wasn't Tyson's ex-wife nor Will Smith's wife. She reminded me of the girl who played opposite "Trudy" (i know it wasn't "Different Strokes")

Jada Pinkett Smith (and by the way... she IS will smith's wife)

 

[LTUCCI1924]

HI: I saw it today and liked the frist one way better.

 

[RoninDiesel]

morpheus wasn't in star wars 1 or 2. that was samuel l. jackson. matrix was laurence fishburne. about the revolutions trailer, was it in the previews or after the credits?

personally...i think they should have made the movie longer. it seemed rush, especially with the scenes leading up the the final climatic scene. How morpheus was talking while events were taking place at that very moment. the fight scenes were cool, but seemed to lack heart, probably because it was more computer dependant. it seemed more slapstick than an actual flow to the fights.

overall, reloaded was better than the original, but like the name, the first was more original.

zanth, i liked your theory about monica's kiss. but sadly, i will be winning your hp-1's.

i absolutely LOVED the camera work. my god. even moreso than Lord of the Rings. just a couple scenes that are sheer brilliance: when neo meets the oracle in the park and agent smith walks toward neo with all the crows. john woo-esque w/crows instead of doves. the scene where neo stops the bullets with his hand. the slow motion where he jumps all over frenchies room. the scene where neo flies to save trinity, where everything behind him gets sucked in a whirlwind.

 

[Zanth]

Hmmm, lots of things to say and so little time at the moment....

Okay, definitively...Zion exists...now their defences are pretty much fsck'd but that's the way it goes.

Bellucci's kiss has something to do with it all. She is said to absorb emotions from others to compensate for her lack of them...she may also be able to give a little something back. The lingering of the camera on what would appear to be a simple exchange of breath...is what I am looking at. Again…everything is sealed with a kiss…and with the Wachowskis loving mythology and everything metaphorical…I can see this creeping in. Also…as we are all electrical impulses triggered by differentiations in chemical concentrations…it is VERY possible that while in the Matrix…brain plugged to computer…the Matrix…the machines…or a program (if that is what Persephone is) could induce a plastic change in brain tissue, synaptic configuration or awaken an already existing formation. I think choices are made…each choice causes Neo to become more of “the One.” If the One is simply an act or source control…then what Morpheus stated in the first film is true…the Oracle said…you aren’t the one dude…but Morpheus states there is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path. At the time…the Oracle was right, at the time Neo had not decided to be the One. Only at the time when he wanted to save Morpheus did he start to believe. It’s really fantastic when one thinks about it. You take an ignorant kid with a certain gift. A certain naïveté…and you rip him out of the world he has always known. You fill his head with information that would cause seizures in most folks…and you watch him. You let him make mistakes…but always there close by to ensure his failures are not too destructive. You let HIM decide…freewill and all that. The Red Pill…saving Morpheus…CHOOSING not to die…the ONE did all that. He simply chose to walk the path and kick some Agent ass!
Now he chooses to kiss Persephone to help the world. He chooses to do so passionately even in front of his lover. He chooses and this choice again…must have a greater effect than what is initially perceived. It was but a moment but it must be detrimental to the plot, else it would not have taken place. A waste of screen time. NOTHING in this movie is a waste of screen time. It may take 18 viewings to figure it out…but when all the pieces fall in place…it is easy to retrace and discover.

Also, I just read a review that definitively states there are no “boxes within boxes.” That is…the “real world” IS the “real world.” This is quite refreshing as the matrix within a matrix within a matrix would have been too easily predictable. It also lends more to the pondering of HOW can Neo do things in the real world? What happened in the Matrix, if anything at all…that could permit him to elicit a sense of control over machines in the real world? By the same token…what was it about Neo that caused Agent Smith to be able to do the same thing? How can he control humans in the real world? The person he “infected” to use Smith’s own words from the first film…is the traitor who attempted to stab Neo, is the one who set off the EMP too early causing the defeat of the defensive force… (this also explains how the forces were destroyed along with a number of sentinels…meanwhile increasing the time of destruction for Zion from 9hours to say…24 hours….the electromagnetic residue would still cause enough of a hazard to warrant staving off the attack for a day).
The title of the movie is Matrix Reloaded. Is it possible it was LITERALLY reloaded? Perhaps the Architect was telling the honest truth…

Okay, more thinking on this later… next comments…the meanings of the names

 

[wallijonn]

Ronin,

thanks. I feel SOOO much better now. I definitely like Fishburn more than Jackson. And I have always loved Jada Smith's acting. I think she's perfect for Will Smith - they make a great looking couple.

concerning Bellucci's kiss - one site said to look at the TVs in the background. She had said that her lover had once loved her like that. He infused lust into the woman in red (nice groin shot. too bad they got the wrong charka).

what is the Matrix?

the first Matrix "was designed to be a perfect human world; where no one suffered; where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster - no one would accept the programming. entire crops were lost. they said that we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. <then i had a revelation> humans define their reality through misery and suffering. the perfect world was a dream that you kept trying to wake up from." it is a neural simulation.

"When the Matrix was first built, a man was born inside it, who had the ability to change whatever he wanted, to remake the Matrix as he saw fit." He died. He taught them the truth. He set them free. The Oracle prophesied his return. The One.

This is a merging of the Resurrection and Reincarnation.

I got a kick when the Oracle looks down at his hands and says, "This is where I am supposed to say, 'This is interesting.'"
So how many times did Neo look at his hands in the 'real' world?

i always think of the telephones as modems.

the red pill is a trace program.

the sentients are programs that can move in and out of any software still hardwire connected to their system. theya re the gatekeepers guarding all the doors, holding all the keys.

every captain of every ship is given codes to access Zion's main computer. <why?>

so Smith had to get the access codes to bring down their defences. then they could attack. But he found a new way - to assimilate the person before they were transported back. (The black oil instead of the silver). the code was therefore corrupted before transmission. (therefore Matrix Reloaded title. remember at the end of the first movie where at the end it says "System Failure"? it didn't crash, it reloaded).

Tank says when Neo is sucking up the training, "He's a machine."

Cypher says, "I know what you're thinking." ("Why didn't I take the blue pill?)

and the Oracle said, "What's really going to get your noodle, later on, is if you wouldn't have tipped the vase over if I hadn't said anything".

What he did with the choclate cake is what the Oracle did with the cookie.

as a Gnostic, I though Morpheus made one wrong assumption when he says "The body can not live without the mind". In Gnosism, to not have a mind is to be God. (Or as the Oracle said, 'Being the one is like being in Love. Balls to bones").

I was let down by Neo starting up her heart because he didn't kiss her and bring her back to life. It could just as easily shown his digital bits going into her through his lips. He could have started shining through his heart, and the light from his heart could have been transferred to his lips as the light came out through his forehead (instead of the top of the head as in death). the light could then have gone into his finger tips. and he would have bathed her in light, just as lovers tend to glow when they make love. in their glow her body would have been bought back to life.

I was let down by how fast the black oil went from Morpheus. He was yanked away by Neo before he could be assimilated. yet the blackness was almost upon Morpheus' face. The CG guys messed up. The camera cut away too quickly. and the editor was left with too little to work with.

And did your version have at least two parts where a splice line is seen through the screen? it was very disconcerting.

as to the spoon, remember, "Do not try to bend the spoon. That's impossible. There is no spoon. It is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself." ? But they were within the Matrix, at the Oracle's place. Therefore the spoon could be made to bend. <one Buddhist asked another, "Is it the the wind that moves the flag?" The second Buddhist said, yes. The first Buddhist slapped the back of his head and said, "It is the mind that moves.">

as to names, I wonder why they had names like 'Dozer' (sleeper or Bulldozer?), 'Tank', 'Switch', and 'Mouse'. Why 'Tank'? (original Matrix). I'll have to re-see Reloaded to re-listen for names.

I just ask why Navigator was there when the original guy didn't die? And while Cypher was shot, there is no actual proof that he died. Therefore he could have been the guy at the end who was also in a coma.

 

[Zanth]

Dude...Cypher....is....dead.

The guy in the film is another guy completely. Doesn't even look like Cypher, is not Cypher and never will be Cypher. I'm not trying to flame you...just mentioning it. Here is a link to the casting: http://us.imdb.com/Credits?0234215

Tank roasted him quite nicely. I wish an elaboration on how Tank died was present in the film. Oh well. I'll assume the hit from Cypher did him in in the end.