[KinGensai]

I think the basic idea behind targeting 120dB SPL is that 120dB SPL is often quoted as the threshold of pain on a lot of these "how loud things are" charts. So it's rather arbitrary target but safe to say, it's more than enough for an enjoyable listening experience.

I noticed that when discussing headroom and listening levels on this forum, people mean different things by "headroom" and "listening levels". For example, when someone says their listening level is at 80dB, what they usually mean it's probably 80dB based on absolutely and utterly nothing at worst and based on getting a microphone and putting it against their headphones at best, which is still so inaccurate that it's just an unrepresentative number.

As for headroom, some people use it as it's typically used in other contexts, they say they listen at 70dB SPL, their music peaks above the average level by 20dB, therefore they need 20dB headroom to reproduce the peaks which means they want an amp that can push their headphones to 90dB. In this sense, 10dB of headroom is only enough for music that has been considerably compressed or limited already.

On the other hand, what some people mean by headroom is that they say they listen at 80dB, their music peaks above the average level by 20dB, and they want 20dB (of unused) headroom above the peak levels, so they want their amp to push their headphones to 120dB. In that sense, 10dB of headroom is 10dB more than what is actually needed.

Is it just me, or does that extra headroom matter a lot when planning to utilize EQ? I am a filthy unabashed basshead, so I pump up the sub-bass unholy amounts to get my fix. I need to drop the pre-amp gain to compensate (with my current IEM it's -9dB), so that extra power comes in handy for reaching a nominal listening level.

 

[VNandor]

Is it just me, or does that extra headroom matter a lot when planning to utilize EQ? I am a filthy unabashed basshead, so I pump up the sub-bass unholy amounts to get my fix. I need to drop the pre-amp gain to compensate (with my current IEM it's -9dB), so that extra power comes in handy for reaching a nominal listening level.

Yes, that effectively pushes down the average level by 9dB but lets the peak level to be the same as before as long as there's actually bass in the track. So you do need the extra power to make up for the extra difference between the peak and average levels introduced by the EQ.

 

[bigshot]

Assuming a normal loud listening level is 80dB and the headroom that is standard is 120dB, the difference is 40dB. If you're EQing that far, you definitely need new transducers.

There's a trick to the way specs work in home audio. The standards are established with plenty of buffer room so people would have to really go out of their way to exceed them. Then an audiophile who believes he has golden ears comes along and jumps through all those hoops so he can proudly announce to his fellow audiophiles that he can hear the bleeding edge. Of course he's doing all kinds of things no one would do in normal listening to be able to do that- square waves, gain riding, outright prevarication, etc. But it gives him an ego boost in an Internet forum to be seen as someone with super human ears.

Then an equipment manufacturer sees that spurious claim and builds a a piece of very expensive gear that pushes the threshold back beyond what Mr Golden Ear is claiming. Another Golden Ear comes along and jumps through even more hoops to force his ears to perceive that, and the whole cycle repeats itself.

When it comes to digital audio, the truth is you can take a well recorded and mixed music CD and plug your cans with a sympathetic impedance into a Walmart DVD player that costs $40 and you are going to get audible transparency. The standards were designed to be transparent and then some. The fact that some people aren't satisfied with perfection says more about them than it does about the standard itself.

If you need to EQ to hit your preferred response target, get as close as you can with the transducers, and do the final tweak with an equalizer.

 

[KinGensai]

I don't know, these things (QDC V14 I mean) are about as good as they get for IEMs (quad woofer BAs). The newest hotness is combining woofer BA arrays with a BC driver (Canpur 622B) to restore some of the lost energy going from speakers to IEMs.

 

[bigshot]

How much of a boost are you doing?

 

[KinGensai]

I run a pair of low shelf filters: -2dB Q1 at 300Hz and +11dB Q0.9 at 58Hz. Mid-bass bothers me by interfering with the mids up to 1k, hence the -2db low shelf.

 

[bigshot]

Well then, a 40dB headroom oughta do the trick!

 

[skhan007]

In using the math I learned here, I estimated (pretty accurately, I believe) what it takes to "drive" headphones that I own. I put that in quotes because people seem to have varied opinions/definitions on what "drive" means.

My ZMF Auteur is listed as 97dB sensitivity/300Ω --> requires 0.063 W and 4.4 v @ 115dB
My Abyss 12266 is listed as 88 dB sensitivity/47Ω--> requires 0.5 W and 4.9 v @ 115 dB

Regarding the ZMF, I did the math, confirmed my findings with the engineer who designed my RME ADI-2 DAC/amp, and used my ears. Works and sounds great. I don't know why people go nuts (elsewhere on Head-Fi) with power requirements. They'd have you believe you need a 20 w amp that provides 50 v to drive certain headphones. I don't get it.

 

[gregorio]

I run a pair of low shelf filters: -2dB Q1 at 300Hz and +11dB Q0.9 at 58Hz.

That seems excessive. Like you’re maybe trying to compensate for the physical “feeling” when using speakers or you’ve maybe got a seal issue.

G

 

[KinGensai]

That seems excessive. Like you’re maybe trying to compensate for the physical “feeling” when using speakers or you’ve maybe got a seal issue.

G

Yeah it probably is lol. I initially did those bass adjustments to approximate the FR of the Maestro SE on my Anole V14, and I liked the sound presentation so much I just kept the settings as a default.

I use custom silicone tips for the V14, so seal is not an issue. HBB did something interesting recently with a WT63B vibration meter, he measured how much IEMs vibrate when playing a signal to see if what he felt could be quantified, and apparently it can. I would expect IEMs with bone conduction drivers to do this of course (he measured the Canpur 622B as vibrating the most), but he also noted some non BC IEMs still vibrate measurably on that meter (Maestro SE) while others that he characterized as dry or clinical did not register on the meter.

I think something like this could be happening in my case as well, because matching the tuning of the V14 to the MSE presents a similar vibrating sensation through my custom tip, so I am hypothesizing the increased SPL is propagating in the long silicone canal and causing the tip to vibrate, leading to some bone conduction.

 

[bigshot]

I can see a ten dB bass boost on very thin headphones. Not that it would really correct the problem, because if you need that much, the cans probably aren’t capable of producing much sound in that range. A considerably smaller boost higher up in the bass would probably be more effective, but if that works for you, I guess it works.

 

[KinGensai]

I can see a ten dB bass boost on very thin headphones. Not that it would really correct the problem, because if you need that much, the cans probably aren’t capable of producing much sound in that range. A considerably smaller boost higher up in the bass would probably be more effective, but if that works for you, I guess it works.

The V14 on the stock tuning generates air movement down to around 10Hz that I could detect, so it's got decent infrasonic extension. I wouldn't say it's a problem with the IEMs in particular, it's just that I'm a dirty basshead lol.

I prefer elevated sub-bass because it's more versatile than a mid-bass focused boost. That boost I use is mostly invisible when I listen to acoustic music and really kicks in when I turn on synthesized music, plus the mids are not masked by sub-bass so I retain clarity.

The physical sensation of mid-bass differs from sub-bass and infrasonics too, and comparing the sound of a kick drum on stage to the recorded version, the infrasonics are what is missing most of all.

 

[bigshot]

Sounds like Gregorio is right then and you’re trying to get the kinesthetic chest thump you get with speakers.

 

[castleofargh]

Yeah it probably is lol. I initially did those bass adjustments to approximate the FR of the Maestro SE on my Anole V14, and I liked the sound presentation so much I just kept the settings as a default.

I use custom silicone tips for the V14, so seal is not an issue. HBB did something interesting recently with a WT63B vibration meter, he measured how much IEMs vibrate when playing a signal to see if what he felt could be quantified, and apparently it can. I would expect IEMs with bone conduction drivers to do this of course (he measured the Canpur 622B as vibrating the most), but he also noted some non BC IEMs still vibrate measurably on that meter (Maestro SE) while others that he characterized as dry or clinical did not register on the meter.

I think something like this could be happening in my case as well, because matching the tuning of the V14 to the MSE presents a similar vibrating sensation through my custom tip, so I am hypothesizing the increased SPL is propagating in the long silicone canal and causing the tip to vibrate, leading to some bone conduction.

AFAIK, IEM designers tend to work toward limiting shaking. A typical example would be to use 2 BAs side by side, but one rotated 180° on the nozzle's axis, so that while the total SPL is increased at the output(aiming for lower distortions at the same SPL), the lateral movements of the plates and membranes are out of phase and mostly cancelled.

On the one hand, I understand your hypothesis about the potential subjectif benefit of felt vibrations, and Floyd Toole did suggest that a perceived vibration even at a different frequency and on the hand or wherever, could help feel like the bass was better/louder. On the other hand, bone conduction is not new and while hyped several times, it has, so far, failed to convince the general user. I'm guessing there is a reason for that.

 

[skhan007]

Sounds like Gregorio is right then and you’re trying to get the kinesthetic chest thump you get with speakers.

That reminds me- I recently learned of the Burson 3XGT headphone amp that has a subwoofer out. My understanding is that you listen to your music with your headphones, but you have a subwoofer in the room, delivering the sub-bass. I can't quite picture if that would sound good/work well or not. But that kinesthetic effect, I'm guessing, is the goal.