Master Clock Talk
Jun 24, 2023 at 7:21 AM Post #2,251 of 3,362
Apologies for the confusion, but the thread is currently a bit hard to track due to some ... differences in opinions.
I'm using an Audio-GD DI20HE (50 ohm) and as a final step of upgrade I was looking for a clock. Here is a list of clocks I have on my radar and I'm currently reading about:
LHY OCK-1/OCK-2
MUTEC REF10 / REF10SE
Gustard C18
Cybershaft clocks
Afterdark project clayx ( this thing has a billion versions )
Are there any more worth checking out? Are there any clocks considered "best" or better than others?
I have the Afterdark Trifecta. It performs very well but i did not compare it to other expensive ones.

Cybershaft and Mutec are excellent but pricey.

The ock2 is a great value and possibly beats the c18. It bests it on paper. It has excellent build quality, with cnc-milled chassis.
 
Jun 24, 2023 at 8:15 AM Post #2,252 of 3,362
If we replace food by audio, experienced audiophiles often belong to the latter group. For them, developing this fine sensitivity is the main goal and pleasure of this hobby.

But maybe I am prejudiced. Although a mathematicien by profession, I was always very sceptical of the natural sciences, and especially of the way they are often used …
We’re not dealing with food, the natural sciences or the limitations of medical science. We’re dealing with clock/clock signals and digital audio.
I did not refer to the general theory of digital audio.
I refer to his theory that we are hearing distortion with our clocks, and we like it, though everybody reports that he hears a larger sound stage, increased depth, a more dynamic sound…
This gap between reality, and theory, proves that the theory is wrong.
No, it does not prove the theory is wrong, in fact it doesn’t even hint the theory is wrong, let alone prove it! Firstly, everybody does not report hearing “a larger sound stage, increased depth a more dynamic sound”. I’ve used various external clocks almost every day for nearly 30 years and I’m not reporting any of these things. Furthermore, the vast majority of external clocks in use are in certain music studios and film/TV sound studios, tens of thousands of them and the vast majority do not report hearing these things.

So obviously it’s not “everybody”, it’s not even a majority, it’s just a relatively tiny minority and almost exclusively in the audiophile world. In addition, extensive testing and measuring demonstrates no difference when using an external clock or in some cases (cheap/poorer quality converters) added noise and distortion.

So, there is NO gap between reality and theory! What there is, is a gap between reality and what a tiny minority (some audiophiles) perceive/believe.

G
 
Jun 24, 2023 at 8:31 AM Post #2,253 of 3,362
So obviously it’s not “everybody”, it’s not even a majority, it’s just a relatively tiny minority and almost exclusively in the audiophile world.
Sure, the majority of the audiophiles do not use clocks. But these users are irrelevant to this topic.
I was referring to those who use clocks, and they are the majority on this thread. All of them report a similar feedback, though it does not fit your own opinion.
 
Jun 24, 2023 at 8:36 AM Post #2,254 of 3,362
We’re not dealing with food, the natural sciences or the limitations of medical science. We’re dealing with clock/clock signals and digital audio.

No, it does not prove the theory is wrong, in fact it doesn’t even hint the theory is wrong, let alone prove it! Firstly, everybody does not report hearing “a larger sound stage, increased depth a more dynamic sound”. I’ve used various external clocks almost every day for nearly 30 years and I’m not reporting any of these things. Furthermore, the vast majority of external clocks in use are in certain music studios and film/TV sound studios, tens of thousands of them and the vast majority do not report hearing these things.

So obviously it’s not “everybody”, it’s not even a majority, it’s just a relatively tiny minority and almost exclusively in the audiophile world. In addition, extensive testing and measuring demonstrates no difference when using an external clock or in some cases (cheap/poorer quality converters) added noise and distortion.

So, there is NO gap between reality and theory! What there is, is a gap between reality and what a tiny minority (some audiophiles) perceive/believe.

G
Nothng new under the sun. People are not all blessed with superior hearing. We are a minority. I have only a few in my circle. Most of those that can't hear are happy with spectacular home theater setups or crappy one-box solutions. But some will still want to follow the audiophile crowd, and will have to rely on "science" because their ears are untrustworthy. So as a consequence, marketing was put in place to extract a max of money out of these audiophile wannabes.

With good propaganda, you can convince people of anything. Except free thinkers, people who can hear and who do not like to be told what they hear or do not hear.
 
Jun 24, 2023 at 8:45 AM Post #2,255 of 3,362
Furthermore, the vast majority of external clocks in use are in certain music studios and film/TV sound studios, tens of thousands of them and the vast majority do not report hearing these things.
I'm involved in production of soundtracks for four decades. I don't care which clocks are used in the studios. The studios are a place for sound production. My own audio system is for sound consumption at a high level of quality.
This morning, a composer, and an artist, came to my home, and we listened together to the mixing tests of his new album. Though he listened to his work with my clocks, he did not complain about distortion. On the contrary, he was impressed by the sound quality, and said that it surpasses the one of the professional studio in which he works on his album at this moment. He said that it was the first time that he hears his work so well.
This is the only point that is important for an audiophile.
 
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Jun 24, 2023 at 8:53 AM Post #2,256 of 3,362
I was referring to those who use clocks, and they are the majority on this thread. All of them report a similar feedback, though it does not fit your own opinion.
You are not “referring to those who use clocks” because the vast majority of those who use external clocks are professional engineers who do not report similar feedback and are not on this thread. Again, I am obviously on this thread and I have a great deal of experience using external clocks and I am not reporting similar feedback.

What is being reported does not fit my personal experience or the experience of most others who use external clocks professionally, nor does it fit the theory, the objective measurements or the controlled testing and therefore it does not fit the recommended best practice, which all together is why it doesn’t fit my own opinion! You are of course entitled to form your own opinion and base it only on audiophile marketing and what some of those posting on this thread are reporting.

G
 
Jun 24, 2023 at 9:07 AM Post #2,258 of 3,362
For those who can't comprehend the effect of a clock with - 105db of phase noise or less at 1hz, go read about the Doppler effect. And consider the analogy of a loudspeaker cabinet with imperfect inertia and its impact on sound.

Implementing a 10Mhz input to bring sound quality improvements is no easy task,. I'll admit. But these solutions are nothing new, these digital PLLs have been used for years in spdif receiver ICs. And they work well.
 
Jun 24, 2023 at 9:10 AM Post #2,259 of 3,362
In addition, extensive testing and measuring demonstrates no difference when using an external clock or in some cases (cheap/poorer quality converters) added noise and distortion.
They don't know how to measure it. But conclusion is made and scientology infected individuals take it as a proof.

For illustration of the problem take a level of recognition of non-linear distortions. It is between 0.1 and 1%. I can afford even 10%. At this level is annoying, but it doesn't lead to a long-term fatigue that cause I don't enjoy music anymore.

This is a kind of distortions that can even give pleasant impression, bring 2nd harmonic with device for $8. blablabla. :)

On the other side clock related distortions affect our recognition of sound. Our brain process sound, in result we can recognise this is violin or piano. There are templates stored in our brain for common natural events, matching these templates makes sound recognition quick, effortless. Jittered sound destroys matching templates, brain needs to process deeper, it cause fatigue. My Topping D30 sounds clean on the beginning, but in 20 minutes something happens that there is no pleasure anymore.

What amount of intermodulation distortion cause this effect? Difficult to say, but we are talking about very very small energy. How much distortion energy 1ps phase noise can carry in the range up to 20kHz? Magnitudes lower than 0.1%.

This is why it is clear that these guys have measured wrong things. Refer to my sig.
 
Jun 24, 2023 at 9:21 AM Post #2,260 of 3,362
You are not “referring to those who use clocks” because the vast majority of those who use external clocks are professional engineers who do not report similar feedback and are not on this thread. Again, I am obviously on this thread and I have a great deal of experience using external clocks and I am not reporting similar feedback.

What is being reported does not fit my personal experience or the experience of most others who use external clocks professionally, nor does it fit the theory, the objective measurements or the controlled testing and therefore it does not fit the recommended best practice, which all together is why it doesn’t fit my own opinion! You are of course entitled to form your own opinion and base it only on audiophile marketing and what some of those posting on this thread are reporting.

G
The sound engineers are not relevant for us. Their job is to produce sound. Our hobby is to consume it at a high level of quality that they don't have at their facilities.
The goals are completely different, and the practices and the recommendations are different as well.
For this reason, your opinion is based on irrelevant arguments.
 
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Jun 24, 2023 at 9:23 AM Post #2,261 of 3,362
Another hint: spdif receiver are bad at removing low-freq phase noise. As a consequence, they will only be able to improve crappy signals to a certain extent. Sound quality will be greatly enhanced using a auperior digital source.
 
Jun 24, 2023 at 9:24 AM Post #2,262 of 3,362
Sure, the majority of the audiophiles do not use clocks. But these users are irrelevant to this topic.
I was referring to those who use clocks, and they are the majority on this thread. All of them report a similar feedback, though it does not fit your own opinion.
The Majority of clock users are not audiophiles and they do not report what you are hearing.
 
Jun 24, 2023 at 9:26 AM Post #2,263 of 3,362
Nothng new under the sun. People are not all blessed with superior hearing. We are a minority. I have only a few in my circle.
It has little to do with superior hearing and a great deal to do with superior listening skills. If it were about superior hearing, that would rule out most audiophiles as they are generally older males with poorer hearing than children, teenagers and young adults. Fortunately, quite a few of my circle have superior listening skills because they’ve been formally trained and they have considerable professional experience.
Most of those that can't hear are happy with spectacular home theater setups or crappy one-box solutions. But some will still want to follow the audiophile crowd, and will have to rely on "science" because their ears are untrustworthy.
And those with the best listening skills rely on those skills and the science.
Except free thinkers, people who can hear and who do not like to be told what they hear or do not hear.
You’re perfectly entitled to believe you can hear the inaudible and likewise I’m just as entitled to believe the demonstrated facts, the science established for over 130 years and the objective measurements/facts.
For those who can't comprehend the effect of a clock with - 105db of phase noise or less at 1hz, go read about the Doppler effect. And consider the analogy of a loudspeaker cabinet with imperfect inertia and its impact on sound.
The Doppler effect, are you sitting in an armchair while listening to a sound system driving past you at 50mph? And, you can consider the analogy of a speaker, as long as you realise the imperfect inertia of a speaker is magnitudes greater.
They don't know how to measure it. But conclusion is made and scientology infected individuals take it as a proof.

For illustration of the problem take a level of recognition of non-linear distortions. It is between 0.1 and 1%.
If we don’t know how to measure it, how do you know it’s between 0.1 and 1% or indeed more typically <0.01%? Obviously we must be able to measure it, unless you’re saying someone just guesses these figures?

G
 
Jun 24, 2023 at 9:29 AM Post #2,264 of 3,362
The Majority of clock users are not audiophiles and they do not report what you are hearing.
They don't use them for the same purpose.
 
Jun 24, 2023 at 9:31 AM Post #2,265 of 3,362
Another hint: spdif receiver are bad at removing low-freq phase noise. As a consequence, they will only be able to improve crappy signals to a certain extent. Sound quality will be greatly enhanced using a auperior digital source.
Sure. And further: if we synchronise source and a receiver with the same clock. Low-freq noise dissappear. It is why we use external clocks.
 
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