[camrector]

Feeling sick reading all these unnecessary debates. If someone likes what his / her way of listening music then its good for that person. Why bother "educating" the others to follow the same way of thinking? How come ones preference is somehow interpreted scientifcally superior and gives power to treat all others primitive tribes not even using fire. If you are happy with what you have, share what you like with someone who cares.

This is a master clock thread
If someone comes here to learn about master clocks, they should have the truth and the science behind that truth.
It’ll save them alot of money and they can gain a broader understanding of their likes.

 

[FredA]

I don’t need to get the science I
is clear. It’s not a belief. I highly doubt your ability to even assemble the generator in the first place.
Your mind is closed and you are chained to your pseudoscience. A prisoner to marketing.
Spend the $8 and see for yourself. The “payoff” is selling your clock and never thinking you have to spend thousands .

It's very, clear, my clock is to stay.
Not for a year, for ever and a day.
The radio and teIephone
In the movies that we now
Are all just passing fancies
That in time may go.
My clock is here..
Oh oh my clock cable is here..
My clock is here to stay.

I would not trade it for a sac of gold.
I would fly to the moon with it.
My clock is music to my ears.
I can't leave in a world without clocks.
I rock around it.
I get around it.
Round round, get around.
We'll be two for the road
Forever and ever.

 

[gregorio]

How could you study it without practicing it? In other words, without listening?
Theory must be backed by experiments.

You have this backwards. The theory wasn’t invented to explain how digital audio works, it’s the other way around. The theory was invented (nearly a century ago) and digital audio was developed from that theory. So if the theory is somehow wrong, digital audio wouldn’t work/wouldn’t exist.

There has of course been countless experiments, dating back over 70 years when digital audio was first implemented in practice and numerous listening tests, even specifically regarding clocking/jitter going back to the 1960’s. The first publicly published study was in 1974, a decade before digital audio recordings were available to the public and there have been many since then.

No measurements can exactly capture what we hear, in fact they fall far short. We can't even measure something as audible as soundstage depth with any accuracy.

Digital audio is itself a measurement, so if this measurement did not include soundstage, then obviously no digital audio recording would ever have any soundstage. You’re not really claiming that are you?

We don’t have a specific/isolated measurement for soundstage because soundstage is a human perception/illusion. So obviously, when we’re measuring the performance of a converter we’re not measuring human perception/illusion, because converters do not have any human perception.

Bold statement .... I wondered why top high end brand like Soulution, CH Precision, Audionote, etc never used room correction. You must be a genius better than their engineers, right?

Obviously it depends on what these companies are making, they may have no need of a hi-fidelity listening environment.

We treat rooms!! we don't use room correction software!! get it? solving problem from the root.

We do both, we acoustically treat rooms AND we use room correction software/hardware. Acoustic design/treatment does not entirely solve the acoustic problems, it only gets you so far. So correction software/hardware is also required for high-end/fidelity. There’s really no need to be rude about it, especially as you’re actually wrong! Because:

I have to admit room correction is ok and convenient for mid-fi, a lot of people cannot afford to treat their rooms, but there is no place for it in hi-end audio.

This assertion is incorrect. If there is no room correction (with a speaker system) then it’s not a “hi-end audio” system! It could very well be an expensive system but it’s not a high-end (high-fidelity) one.

The top/professional speaker manufacturers and installers all either have their own correction software/hardware (JBL, Genelec, Meyer, etc.) or rooms/studios are corrected by using room measurements/analysis (Smaart for example) and then corrective EQ/filters/crossovers or dedicated units such as those made by Trinnov.

the mixing engineer has no idea what his recording sounds like on hifi, he is only listening to his monitor which sounds completely different from what it sounds on your hifi. Comparing that to your hifi? you got to be kidding.....

Commercial recording studios have a considerable amount of acoustic design, treatment and correction software/hardware and are very much high-fidelity so of course the mixing engineer does have a very good idea “what his recording sounds like on hifi”. I’m baffled how anyone can claim any different, unless they’ve never been to a commercial studio or experienced a high-fidelity system/environment. However, the mixing engineer won’t necessarily have a great idea how his mix will sound on consumer systems (which are lower fidelity) but that’s obviously why we have the mastering process and mastering engineers!

The arguments are baffling, if you’re listening to digital audio then you’re listening to measurements!

G

 

[bodiebill2]

There are theories about certain types of food. What to eat and what not to eat in terms of health and longevity. Many of us take these to heart and follow them to avoid the stuff that is supposed to be bad for us. Other people crave short term satisfaction, just eat what they like and perhaps regret it (a day or a decade) later. However there is a third group of people who have developed a fine sensitivity to know how their body and mind react to certain types and combinations of food and use this sensitivity for their food selection. This latter approach -- which is individual as well as holistic -- is always vastly superior to the generic and simplified theories of a science that mostly studies isolated aspects out of their full context and applies these to average people/things.

If we replace food by audio, experienced audiophiles often belong to the latter group. For them, developing this fine sensitivity is the main goal and pleasure of this hobby.

But maybe I am prejudiced. Although a mathematicien by profession, I was always very sceptical of the natural sciences, and especially of the way they are often used -- as we see here -- to stop rather than start thinking and exploring.

 

[Dandoudou]

You have this backwards. The theory wasn’t invented to explain how digital audio works, it’s the other way around. The theory was invented (nearly a century ago) and digital audio was developed from that theory. So if the theory is somehow wrong, digital audio wouldn’t work/wouldn’t exist.

I did not refer to the general theory of digital audio.
I refer to his theory that we are hearing distortion with our clocks, and we like it, though everybody reports that he hears a larger sound stage, increased depth, a more dynamic sound… This gap between reality, and theory, proves that the theory is wrong.

 

[camrector]

But maybe I am prejudiced. Although a mathematicien by profession, I was always very sceptical of the natural sciences, and especially the way they are often used -- as we see here -- to stop rather than start thinking and exploring.

Joseph Fourier did do the exploring back in 1822.
Here you can read about. This should make more sense to you than anyone here.
https://www.mathworks.com/discovery/fft.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourier_transform

 

[camrector]

I did not refer to the general theory of digital audio.
I refer to his theory that we are hearing distortion with our clocks, and we like it, though everybody reports that he hears a larger sound stage, increased depth, a more dynamic sound… This gap between reality, and theory, proves that the theory is wrong.

What do people who love tubes say about tubes? Larger soundstage? Holographic? Increased depth? Dynamics?
That’s all from 2nd order harmonic distortion.

 

[Dandoudou]

@camrector , there's nothing wrong in being mistaken theoretically.
Even Albert Einstein, the greatest scientist of all time, was mistaken about the quantum theory.

And take with a double spoon of salt whatever you can read on the web.
Especially from the audio "scientists".

 

[camrector]

@camrector , there's nothing wrong in being mistaken theoretically.
Even Albert Einstein, the greatest scientist of all time, was mistaken about the quantum theory.

What is wrong? That intermodulation and 2nd order harmonic distortion is what you are hearing in your clock?

 

[firegon]

Apologies for the confusion, but the thread is currently a bit hard to track due to some ... differences in opinions.
I'm using an Audio-GD DI20HE (50 ohm) and as a final step of upgrade I was looking for a clock. Here is a list of clocks I have on my radar and I'm currently reading about:
LHY OCK-1/OCK-2
MUTEC REF10 / REF10SE
Gustard C18
Cybershaft clocks
Afterdark project clayx ( this thing has a billion versions )
Are there any more worth checking out? Are there any clocks considered "best" or better than others?

 

[OCC7N]

ASR dude: "Yo! you know, you like music because it sounds bad right?"
Average dude: "Huh! but I just got this new DAC, It sounds much more pleasing"
ASR dude: "Dude you are completely wrong its jitter and distortion from the clock, don´t let me get started on 2. harmonic distortion"
Average dude: "Wow! awesome how much jitter and 2. harmonic distortion can I get, please I want alot!"
ASR dude: "No you are wrong again!"
Average dude: "But you said jitter and distortion sounds good"
ASR dude: "You know, you like music because it sounds bad right?"

 

[camrector]

Apologies for the confusion, but the thread is currently a bit hard to track due to some ... differences in opinions.
I'm using an Audio-GD DI20HE (50 ohm) and as a final step of upgrade I was looking for a clock. Here is a list of clocks I have on my radar and I'm currently reading about:
LHY OCK-1/OCK-2
MUTEC REF10 / REF10SE
Gustard C18
Cybershaft clocks
Afterdark project clayx ( this thing has a billion versions )
Are there any more worth checking out? Are there any clocks considered "best" or better than others?

Why do you think you need a clock?

 

[Dandoudou]

What do people who love tubes say about tubes?

You are confused because of the distortion of the waves of the analog sound.
But the 10 mHz clock is not connected to the devices of the analog section of the audio system. It is connected to the switch, the streamer, the DDC, the digital section of the DAC… All these devices process DATA! It has nothing to do with the analog waves of the sound, and the distortions that you imagine.

 

[camrector]

ASR dude: "Yo! you know, you like music because it sounds bad right?"
Average dude: "Huh! but I just got this new DAC, It sounds much more pleasing"
ASR dude: "Dude you are completely wrong its jitter and distortion from the clock, don´t let me get started on 2. harmonic distortion"
Average dude: "Wow! awesome how much jitter and 2. harmonic distortion can I get, please I want alot!"
ASR dude: "No you are wrong again!"
Average dude: "But you said jitter and distortion sounds good"
ASR dude: "You know, you like music because it sounds bad right?"

ASR dude: "Yo! you know, you like music because it sounds bad right?"
Average dude: "Huh! but I just got this new DAC, It sounds much more pleasing"
ASR dude: "Dude you are completely wrong its jitter and distortion from the clock, don´t let me get started on 2. harmonic distortion"
Average dude: "Wow! awesome how much jitter and 2. harmonic distortion can I get, please I want alot!"

Me: you can get as much as you want!
Nelson Pass created a 2nd order harmonic distortion generator.
People seem to think distortion is bad. But distortion is just a change in the signal. EQ is distortion. Roon uses distortion. All those options in HQplayer well those are distortion too.
Stay away from jitter though. You don’t want that.

 

[camrector]

You are confused because of the distortion of the waves of the analog sound.
But the 10 mHz clock is not connected to the devices of the analog section of the audio system. It is connected to the switch, the streamer, the DDC, the digital section of the DAC… All these devices process DATA! It has nothing to do with the analog waves of the sound, and the distortions that you imagine.

What is distortion? Honestly tell me what you think it is?

How do all these HQplayer filters work?