legoman
100+ Head-Fier
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The delegation from Legoland submits to the United Head-Fi Nations the humble suggestion of closing this thread.
Markl's response to Kelly and discussion
- Thread starter markl
- Start date
joelongwood
Keeper of the 'Phones
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Quote:
The motion is carried....................whew!
| Originally posted by legoman The delegation from Legoland submits to the United Head-Fi Nations the humble suggestion of closing this thread. |
The motion is carried....................whew!
At markl's request, I am reopening this thread so that he can get his final words in. At that point, the thread can either continue onward if any responses are necessary or appropriate, or a third party moderator may close it again.
markl
Hangin' with the monkeys.
Member of the Trade: Lawton Audio
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This thread was closed before I had the opportunity to sum up my thoughts. At the risk of compounding the ill-will towards me, for my own peace of mind and to clean my own karma, I have asked the mod to re-open the thread so I can add my final .02. If nothing else, my own personal experience detailed here should give you insight into how this board is moderated. It may upset you, it may leave you indifferent. If it bores you, don't read it.
In my opinion, this entire episode was mis-handled by the moderators, placing me in an incredibly awkward position and causing other Members to completely mis-apprehend the sequence of events and the issues behind the posts they read. Intentional or not, these errors caused harm to me, placing me in a no-win situation. I will summarize what happened, and list the mistakes so hopefully these errors will not happen to anyone else in the future.
1. A Member with a long history of making rude comments toward me (*borderline* trolling me), posted yet another inflammatory remark meant to cause harm to my reputation on a board that I have supported from the beginning and contributed to in a (mostly) exemplary manner. This unnecessarily insulting post remained unaltered in the thread for two days before I had the chance to view it and respond. In the meantime, two Moderators replied in the thread after the offensive remarks, taking no note of them, and taking no action against the Member making the attack against me.
2. I replied to this Member in a single post, saying all I had to say to that member, giving as good as I got. That was supposed to be THE END of that. But here's where both I and the moderators went off track.
3. In that thread, I started to question the moderators over a series of posts, asking them to clarify the rules here at Head-Fi, and demanding an explanation for their inaction at such obviously irrelevant and off-topic name-calling directed against me.
4. The Moderator contacted me off-line and basically asked me to drop it, because pursuing the matter and discussing board moderation "would be damaging to the community" (or damaging to the moderators?). I slept on it, and decided the matter was not big enough to make into an issue and was in fact going to drop it altogether, and I *was*, until what happened next.
5. The next morning, I opened the thread to find the offending Member's post intact, including the rude remarks against me, but every single one of my replies was removed from the thread, even the initial rebuttal to the rude remarks, not just the off-topic posts of mine questioning the moderators. It appeared that I had lost my right to respond to an attack. And I would have, if I hadn't raised Holy Hell.
6. Behind-the-scenes, the Mod informed me that the matter was still in play, so I was jumping the gun by reacting to what I saw. He told me that my rebuttal to the Member's attacks were deleted from the thread because they were "off-topic", while the original insulting post was somehow "on-topic" and therefore to be preserved in the thread. The offending Member was being given the *option* of editing his post *as he saw fit*. Apparently, no further action was deemed necessary-- no public cautioning, nothing. There was to be no direct action taken against the offending Member or his post by the Mods at Head-Fi. I was incensed. Why? Because slander against me was allowed to remain (for well over a day) completely untouched, while my rebuttal to the insults was kept off the board in an invisible holding pen while the Mod decided what to do with it. His decision about what to do with my reply to the insult was the genesis of this thread, and cause of tremendous grief to me.
7. The Mod decided that my "off-topic" rebuttal to the Member's attack, as well as the resulting discussion of the role of Moderators should be placed in another entirely separate thread to preserve the sanctity of the initial thread from which they were taken. I *never* authorized the creation of this thread, the Mod did this completely independently, in order to (in his mind) satisfy my demand that my rebuttal not be deleted from the forum. I wanted my reply, which was no more "off-topic" than the original offending post, to remain in the original thread. This was not to be. The Mod created and titled this thread, *and* listed my name as the "Thread Starter", when I had *nothing* to do with its genesis.
8. Upon initially creating the thread with the title "Markl's reply to Kelly and discussion", the moderator carelessly mis-construed the thrust of my remarks, making it look like I felt the need to start a whole new thread to start a "markl vs. kelly" discussion, when the topic is not my anger at kelly (I dispensed with that in a single post that was ripped from thread in which it belongs and was completely done with the matter), but my anger with the Moderation at Head-Fi, which in my opinion is arbitrary, inconsistent, plays favorites, and whose policies are made up on the spot. I was mad at the Moderators for continuing to let this member troll myself and other Members, and demanding they tell me when enough was enough and action is taken against such rogue posters. As it turns out, Head-Fi policy on this matter is non-existent, and individual Mods are free to deal with situations as they pop up more or less as they please. This leads to arbitrary decisions that can have serious repercussions for you, even if you are the wronged party asking for redress.
9. Further making me look like a jerk, the moderator initially included no explanation about how this thread came to be in the first place. It just launched into my reply to kelly's attack. To everyone, it looked like I started this thread, and I was instigating an attack on kelly, which couldn't be further from the truth. With no information, I don't blame members for being angry and disgusted with me. Taken out of context, it looked ridiculous. As a result, the entire point of my tirade was lost on the membership. For the record, I don't give a toss about kelly, he can go jump in the lake. The real topic of this discussion is (despite how it was presented to you) NOT kelly vs. markl, but markl questioning the inconsistent policies and practices of the Mods. It is the Mods, not kelly that is at the root of my anger. This was totally lost in the insuing wave of verbal abuse I suffered (most of which was edited by the Mod), by people with no idea what was really going on. And how could they? Posts were cut and pasted and randomly assigned to one thread and not another. What a mess!
10. Finally, the mod posted a little blurb at the top of this thread explaining that he had created it, not me. But it was too late; the damage was done. I had already been taken to the woodshed by the Membership and publicly flogged for entertainment.
11. My position is that I was trolled yet again by a Member known for trolling. Due to the cozy relationship this Member has with the Moderation of this board, or due to the fact that this member contributes well-written reviews when not bashing others, this Member has been given carte blanche to insult at will. Unless you, the insulted member, complain directly to the Moderator, no action will be taken against this Member. Based on my experience, I advise you NEVER to complain. You see what happened to me. Disaster.
I know a lot of Members are disgusted with me. I ask you to *please try* to look at it from my POV before you judge me too harshly. At what point during the course of being trolled do you speak up and say "enough"? I personally reached my limit, and cried "foul". And don't you have an expectation that when you do finally complain, the Moderators will hear you and treat your complaint in a reasonable manner, not hang you out to dry? This was certainly my expectation. How wrong I was!
I recognize that some of my posts here, taken out of context of the actual sequence of events, portray me as a hot-headed whiner. Maybe I deserve some chastising for the strength of my reaction. Fine, I'm a big boy and I accept that. But in my defense, I felt I was the wronged/injured party, and was denied anything resembling "justice" by the Moderators on this board. What happened to me does not bode well for you if you should ever run afoul of a troll, especially a high-post-count troll who basically can't be stopped at this point.
The question at stake here is this: who is qualified to say which posts are offensive-- the offended party, or the Moderators on this board? In my case, the Mods decided the post in question was not only inoffensive, but "on-topic" to boot. I was the one crying "foul", and my feelings were ignored in favor of the judgement of the mods. You can expect to be treated this way as well.
As for me, I'm not sure I'm coming back. I know, big loss. I would, however, like you to know that this situation has been very sad for me. I've spent a lot of my valuable time here attempting to add to the pool of information available on headphones. With the exception of a few Members who baited me, I have been nothing but civil and constructive in my posts here. Over my time here, I've helped many members and corresponded with many of you off-line. In that regard, I've worked as hard as anyone here for the continued development of this community.
I did not ask for any of this. I simply sought redress from the board for (yet another) a verbal attack on me from a certain Member. This was the result.
There are lessons in here, but I'm not sure what they are yet.
markl
In my opinion, this entire episode was mis-handled by the moderators, placing me in an incredibly awkward position and causing other Members to completely mis-apprehend the sequence of events and the issues behind the posts they read. Intentional or not, these errors caused harm to me, placing me in a no-win situation. I will summarize what happened, and list the mistakes so hopefully these errors will not happen to anyone else in the future.
1. A Member with a long history of making rude comments toward me (*borderline* trolling me), posted yet another inflammatory remark meant to cause harm to my reputation on a board that I have supported from the beginning and contributed to in a (mostly) exemplary manner. This unnecessarily insulting post remained unaltered in the thread for two days before I had the chance to view it and respond. In the meantime, two Moderators replied in the thread after the offensive remarks, taking no note of them, and taking no action against the Member making the attack against me.
2. I replied to this Member in a single post, saying all I had to say to that member, giving as good as I got. That was supposed to be THE END of that. But here's where both I and the moderators went off track.
3. In that thread, I started to question the moderators over a series of posts, asking them to clarify the rules here at Head-Fi, and demanding an explanation for their inaction at such obviously irrelevant and off-topic name-calling directed against me.
4. The Moderator contacted me off-line and basically asked me to drop it, because pursuing the matter and discussing board moderation "would be damaging to the community" (or damaging to the moderators?). I slept on it, and decided the matter was not big enough to make into an issue and was in fact going to drop it altogether, and I *was*, until what happened next.
5. The next morning, I opened the thread to find the offending Member's post intact, including the rude remarks against me, but every single one of my replies was removed from the thread, even the initial rebuttal to the rude remarks, not just the off-topic posts of mine questioning the moderators. It appeared that I had lost my right to respond to an attack. And I would have, if I hadn't raised Holy Hell.
6. Behind-the-scenes, the Mod informed me that the matter was still in play, so I was jumping the gun by reacting to what I saw. He told me that my rebuttal to the Member's attacks were deleted from the thread because they were "off-topic", while the original insulting post was somehow "on-topic" and therefore to be preserved in the thread. The offending Member was being given the *option* of editing his post *as he saw fit*. Apparently, no further action was deemed necessary-- no public cautioning, nothing. There was to be no direct action taken against the offending Member or his post by the Mods at Head-Fi. I was incensed. Why? Because slander against me was allowed to remain (for well over a day) completely untouched, while my rebuttal to the insults was kept off the board in an invisible holding pen while the Mod decided what to do with it. His decision about what to do with my reply to the insult was the genesis of this thread, and cause of tremendous grief to me.
7. The Mod decided that my "off-topic" rebuttal to the Member's attack, as well as the resulting discussion of the role of Moderators should be placed in another entirely separate thread to preserve the sanctity of the initial thread from which they were taken. I *never* authorized the creation of this thread, the Mod did this completely independently, in order to (in his mind) satisfy my demand that my rebuttal not be deleted from the forum. I wanted my reply, which was no more "off-topic" than the original offending post, to remain in the original thread. This was not to be. The Mod created and titled this thread, *and* listed my name as the "Thread Starter", when I had *nothing* to do with its genesis.
8. Upon initially creating the thread with the title "Markl's reply to Kelly and discussion", the moderator carelessly mis-construed the thrust of my remarks, making it look like I felt the need to start a whole new thread to start a "markl vs. kelly" discussion, when the topic is not my anger at kelly (I dispensed with that in a single post that was ripped from thread in which it belongs and was completely done with the matter), but my anger with the Moderation at Head-Fi, which in my opinion is arbitrary, inconsistent, plays favorites, and whose policies are made up on the spot. I was mad at the Moderators for continuing to let this member troll myself and other Members, and demanding they tell me when enough was enough and action is taken against such rogue posters. As it turns out, Head-Fi policy on this matter is non-existent, and individual Mods are free to deal with situations as they pop up more or less as they please. This leads to arbitrary decisions that can have serious repercussions for you, even if you are the wronged party asking for redress.
9. Further making me look like a jerk, the moderator initially included no explanation about how this thread came to be in the first place. It just launched into my reply to kelly's attack. To everyone, it looked like I started this thread, and I was instigating an attack on kelly, which couldn't be further from the truth. With no information, I don't blame members for being angry and disgusted with me. Taken out of context, it looked ridiculous. As a result, the entire point of my tirade was lost on the membership. For the record, I don't give a toss about kelly, he can go jump in the lake. The real topic of this discussion is (despite how it was presented to you) NOT kelly vs. markl, but markl questioning the inconsistent policies and practices of the Mods. It is the Mods, not kelly that is at the root of my anger. This was totally lost in the insuing wave of verbal abuse I suffered (most of which was edited by the Mod), by people with no idea what was really going on. And how could they? Posts were cut and pasted and randomly assigned to one thread and not another. What a mess!
10. Finally, the mod posted a little blurb at the top of this thread explaining that he had created it, not me. But it was too late; the damage was done. I had already been taken to the woodshed by the Membership and publicly flogged for entertainment.
11. My position is that I was trolled yet again by a Member known for trolling. Due to the cozy relationship this Member has with the Moderation of this board, or due to the fact that this member contributes well-written reviews when not bashing others, this Member has been given carte blanche to insult at will. Unless you, the insulted member, complain directly to the Moderator, no action will be taken against this Member. Based on my experience, I advise you NEVER to complain. You see what happened to me. Disaster.
I know a lot of Members are disgusted with me. I ask you to *please try* to look at it from my POV before you judge me too harshly. At what point during the course of being trolled do you speak up and say "enough"? I personally reached my limit, and cried "foul". And don't you have an expectation that when you do finally complain, the Moderators will hear you and treat your complaint in a reasonable manner, not hang you out to dry? This was certainly my expectation. How wrong I was!
I recognize that some of my posts here, taken out of context of the actual sequence of events, portray me as a hot-headed whiner. Maybe I deserve some chastising for the strength of my reaction. Fine, I'm a big boy and I accept that. But in my defense, I felt I was the wronged/injured party, and was denied anything resembling "justice" by the Moderators on this board. What happened to me does not bode well for you if you should ever run afoul of a troll, especially a high-post-count troll who basically can't be stopped at this point.
The question at stake here is this: who is qualified to say which posts are offensive-- the offended party, or the Moderators on this board? In my case, the Mods decided the post in question was not only inoffensive, but "on-topic" to boot. I was the one crying "foul", and my feelings were ignored in favor of the judgement of the mods. You can expect to be treated this way as well.
As for me, I'm not sure I'm coming back. I know, big loss. I would, however, like you to know that this situation has been very sad for me. I've spent a lot of my valuable time here attempting to add to the pool of information available on headphones. With the exception of a few Members who baited me, I have been nothing but civil and constructive in my posts here. Over my time here, I've helped many members and corresponded with many of you off-line. In that regard, I've worked as hard as anyone here for the continued development of this community.
I did not ask for any of this. I simply sought redress from the board for (yet another) a verbal attack on me from a certain Member. This was the result.
There are lessons in here, but I'm not sure what they are yet.
markl
eric343
Member of the Trade: Audiogeek: The "E" in META42
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Quote:
Markl, I hope you don't think that we would make assumptions about you based on one post, that was editied later. You've got, what, 1500+posts here? I think our opinon of you is far more deeply shaped by your average tone and character as represented in those posts than in a single, obviously out of context, post.
| 10. Finally, the mod posted a little blurb at the top of this thread explaining that he had created it, not me. But it was too late; the damage was done. I had already been taken to the woodshed by the Membership and publicly flogged for entertainment. |
Markl, I hope you don't think that we would make assumptions about you based on one post, that was editied later. You've got, what, 1500+posts here? I think our opinon of you is far more deeply shaped by your average tone and character as represented in those posts than in a single, obviously out of context, post.
isotope240
Head-Fier
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hmm, this kinda reminds me of the way the moderators (mis?)handled the exchanges between me and grinch in the "dealers and discounts" thread...
i loved the way jude and the mods failed to reprimand grinch for comments such as "you are scum. you make me want to puke blood". but then again, maybe that kind of thing isn't what jude had in mind when he mentioned "personal attacks" in the posting rules.
so jude, what exactly IS a personal attack? i guess there isn't a definite answer to that question, but maybe you could at least clarify why comments like the ones grinch made in that "dealers and discounts" thread are NOT personal attacks, because they really strike me (and a couple of moderators that i PMed about the matter) as such.
while i'm questioning the way moderators handle these types of situations, another thread that i'd like to call attention to is that "moderating serious threads" one that turned into rampant public mockery of kelly... he's taken his share of **** as well.... and ironically, in that particular case, the **** was mainly coming from head-fiers in leadership positions.
i loved the way jude and the mods failed to reprimand grinch for comments such as "you are scum. you make me want to puke blood". but then again, maybe that kind of thing isn't what jude had in mind when he mentioned "personal attacks" in the posting rules.
so jude, what exactly IS a personal attack? i guess there isn't a definite answer to that question, but maybe you could at least clarify why comments like the ones grinch made in that "dealers and discounts" thread are NOT personal attacks, because they really strike me (and a couple of moderators that i PMed about the matter) as such.
while i'm questioning the way moderators handle these types of situations, another thread that i'd like to call attention to is that "moderating serious threads" one that turned into rampant public mockery of kelly... he's taken his share of **** as well.... and ironically, in that particular case, the **** was mainly coming from head-fiers in leadership positions.
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isotope240,
You've been here since, what, August? You have all of 78 posts. And yet you see serial problems with the way things are run, trigger-happy with scathing criticism of what you see is the disaster that's the moderating of this forum.
You think I read every single post made at Head-Fi? Unfortunately, no I don't. Here, let's make a deal: you read the 187,502 posts that have been made here at Head-Fi, and then tell me if you think this place is really run that bad.
I think the individual you're so vehemently defending has shown himself perfectly capable of dishing it out and defending himself. You're reminding me of that cartoon little dog that, with dogged admiration, jumps over the big bulldog with the spikey collar....
"Hey, Spike!"
Hang out for a while. The place generally works.
P.S. If there's a specific post you have a problem with, don't assume I've read it. PM or e-mail me about it, and/or use the "Report this post to a moderator" link that you can find in every post.
You've been here since, what, August? You have all of 78 posts. And yet you see serial problems with the way things are run, trigger-happy with scathing criticism of what you see is the disaster that's the moderating of this forum.
You think I read every single post made at Head-Fi? Unfortunately, no I don't. Here, let's make a deal: you read the 187,502 posts that have been made here at Head-Fi, and then tell me if you think this place is really run that bad.
I think the individual you're so vehemently defending has shown himself perfectly capable of dishing it out and defending himself. You're reminding me of that cartoon little dog that, with dogged admiration, jumps over the big bulldog with the spikey collar....
"Hey, Spike!"
Hang out for a while. The place generally works.
P.S. If there's a specific post you have a problem with, don't assume I've read it. PM or e-mail me about it, and/or use the "Report this post to a moderator" link that you can find in every post.
Jeff Guidry
Headphoneus Supremus
- Joined
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"................the ability to let that which does not matter truly slide..."
Believe me, I know how tough it is to just let things go, and how hard it is to stop judging things only from your own perspective and attempt to view a situation as someone else sees it. The only thing I can add to this discussion is: try.
Believe me, I know how tough it is to just let things go, and how hard it is to stop judging things only from your own perspective and attempt to view a situation as someone else sees it. The only thing I can add to this discussion is: try.
isotope240
Head-Fier
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Quote:
so am i supposed to reply to that comment about the cartoon dog, or was that just meant to add an underlying condescension to your post? i'm a newbie, so maybe my opinion is not justified, but here is what i think:
the way kelly's comment in "moderating serious threads" was received by both you and many of your moderators was at least worthy of public questioning, if not criticism.
i see markl's points. i'm not just looking to stir up trouble for no reason, i just think i have valid complaints that contribute to his argument. i mean, how about addressing the questions in my previous post and clearing some things up, instead of just trying to make me look foolish?
P.S. when i have quoted the comment AND named the thread in multiple complaints (one of which was a PM i sent to you), i assume you have taken a moment to read the post i have a problem with. sorry i jumped to a conclusion there.
| Originally posted by jude isotope240, You've been here since, what, August? You have all of 78 posts. And yet you see serial problems with the way things are run, trigger-happy with scathing criticism of what you see is the disaster that's the moderation of this forum. You think I read every single post made at Head-Fi? Unfortunately, no I don't. Here, let's make a deal: you read the 187,502 posts that have been made here at Head-Fi, and then tell me if you think this place is really run that bad. I think the individual you're so vehemently defending has shown himself perfectly capable of dishing it out and defending himself. You're reminding me of that cartoon little dog that, with dogged admiration, jumps over the big bulldog with the spikey collar.... "Hey, Spike!" P.S. If there's a specific post you have a problem with, don't assume I've read it. |
so am i supposed to reply to that comment about the cartoon dog, or was that just meant to add an underlying condescension to your post? i'm a newbie, so maybe my opinion is not justified, but here is what i think:
the way kelly's comment in "moderating serious threads" was received by both you and many of your moderators was at least worthy of public questioning, if not criticism.
i see markl's points. i'm not just looking to stir up trouble for no reason, i just think i have valid complaints that contribute to his argument. i mean, how about addressing the questions in my previous post and clearing some things up, instead of just trying to make me look foolish?
P.S. when i have quoted the comment AND named the thread in multiple complaints (one of which was a PM i sent to you), i assume you have taken a moment to read the post i have a problem with. sorry i jumped to a conclusion there.
Joe Bloggs
Sponsor: HiByMember of the Trade: EFO Technologies Co, YanYin TechnologyHis Porta Corda walked the Green Mile
I think the moderating team should adapt its moderating style according to the character of the person being flamed. Some can take kelly's best and throw it right back at his face; others are quite helpless to this kind of thing. Some members have even been laughed out of Head-Fi by his likes (e.g. violeta88 IIRC).
IMHO moderators can continue to leave free rein to battles between members of comparable flaming skill and thickness of hide, but clamp down more strongly when the fight is decidedly one-sided, as is the case here, so the unfortunate victim doesn't need to go home and cry mama (j/k markl, I can feel your pain. I was there once...
)
IMHO moderators can continue to leave free rein to battles between members of comparable flaming skill and thickness of hide, but clamp down more strongly when the fight is decidedly one-sided, as is the case here, so the unfortunate victim doesn't need to go home and cry mama (j/k markl, I can feel your pain. I was there once...
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[size=xx-small] Quote:
[/size]
Man, for the first time in ages, I've had time lately to actually visit Head-Fi a little more regularly. Prepared to have some fun here, I can't believe some of the crap I'm seeing instead.
If I missed a PM from you, I apologize. I get about 300 e-mails per day completely unrelated to Head-Fi (not including junk, which pushes the number to around a thousand). On top of these, I get many PM's and e-mails related to Head-Fi every single day. So I unfortunately end up having to ignore a lot of folks. If you were one of them, I apologize.
A personal attack is a personal attack. I'm not going to define it for you. It's one of those things you know when you see it. Ideally, a moderator catches the ones that should be removed and removes them in a timely manner. Sometimes it doesn't happen. Sometimes it does. Sometimes commercial posts get caught. Sometimes they don't. One recent commercial post was caught only after it had blossomed into a big thread, so I didn't delete it, I just closed it. For ******'s sake, the place isn't perfect. One of the moderators here tried to do the right thing by keeping another thread on-topic, and moving the dispute to a new thread. Some people agreed with this move, some didn't. The moderator meant well, whether you agreed with the move or not. We could argue about this all year long, so here's a suggestion: let's not.
And here's my bit about your opinion about my response in that thread you keep referring to: I'll stand by my response. Your opinion is noted, and, truth be told, I couldn't care less what you think about my response in that thread. I'll say it again -- I'm here as a member first, moderator/admin second. You want to criticize, go ahead. You want to argue with me, go ahead. But being a moderator/admin doesn't mean I can't respond in kind.
At the end of the day, I just can't believe how little fun some people have here. I mean, why bother then? Love or hate my response here, I'm done with this thread. This has gotten ridiculously out of hand, in my opinion, and I'm going to enjoy the time I have to read and post here, because, again, it's the first time in a long time I've had a chance to read and post here.
Go ahead, isotope240, lemme have it. Go to town! It's your perfect opportunity, because I'm not going to respond in this thread.
| Originally posted by isotope240 so am i supposed to reply to that comment about the cartoon dog, or was that just meant to add an underlying condescension to your post? i'm a newbie, so maybe my opinion is not justified, but here is what i think: the way kelly's comment in "moderating serious threads" was received by both you and many of your moderators was at least worthy of public questioning, if not criticism. i see markl's points. i'm not just looking to stir up trouble for no reason, i just think i have valid complaints that contribute to his argument. i mean, how about addressing the questions in my previous post and clearing some things up, instead of just trying to make me look foolish? P.S. when i have quoted the comment AND named the thread in multiple complaints (one of which was a PM i sent to you), i assume you have taken a moment to read the post i have a problem with. sorry i jumped to a conclusion there. |
[/size]
Man, for the first time in ages, I've had time lately to actually visit Head-Fi a little more regularly. Prepared to have some fun here, I can't believe some of the crap I'm seeing instead.
If I missed a PM from you, I apologize. I get about 300 e-mails per day completely unrelated to Head-Fi (not including junk, which pushes the number to around a thousand). On top of these, I get many PM's and e-mails related to Head-Fi every single day. So I unfortunately end up having to ignore a lot of folks. If you were one of them, I apologize.
A personal attack is a personal attack. I'm not going to define it for you. It's one of those things you know when you see it. Ideally, a moderator catches the ones that should be removed and removes them in a timely manner. Sometimes it doesn't happen. Sometimes it does. Sometimes commercial posts get caught. Sometimes they don't. One recent commercial post was caught only after it had blossomed into a big thread, so I didn't delete it, I just closed it. For ******'s sake, the place isn't perfect. One of the moderators here tried to do the right thing by keeping another thread on-topic, and moving the dispute to a new thread. Some people agreed with this move, some didn't. The moderator meant well, whether you agreed with the move or not. We could argue about this all year long, so here's a suggestion: let's not.
And here's my bit about your opinion about my response in that thread you keep referring to: I'll stand by my response. Your opinion is noted, and, truth be told, I couldn't care less what you think about my response in that thread. I'll say it again -- I'm here as a member first, moderator/admin second. You want to criticize, go ahead. You want to argue with me, go ahead. But being a moderator/admin doesn't mean I can't respond in kind.
At the end of the day, I just can't believe how little fun some people have here. I mean, why bother then? Love or hate my response here, I'm done with this thread. This has gotten ridiculously out of hand, in my opinion, and I'm going to enjoy the time I have to read and post here, because, again, it's the first time in a long time I've had a chance to read and post here.
Go ahead, isotope240, lemme have it. Go to town! It's your perfect opportunity, because I'm not going to respond in this thread.
eric343
Member of the Trade: Audiogeek: The "E" in META42
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Joe: True. And it was a LOT worse the last time I was on the #headphones IRC channel.
But in any case, reading through the thread Isotope mentioned, I read the thread as thus:
Kelly makes post criticizing moderators.
Mbriant replies with a scalding flame, severely criticizing Kelly for his criticism as a thinly veiled stab at certain moderators.
The rest of Team Moderation weighs in with their thoughts on how moderation should go; in a fashion that (I find) is civil, reasonable, and fair (and not really criticising of kelly, just a polite response to or rebuttal of the points Kelly made).
I did NOT see any large-scale piling-up on Kelly, or at least not one where the pilers weren't trying to be polite about it.
But in any case, reading through the thread Isotope mentioned, I read the thread as thus:
Kelly makes post criticizing moderators.
Mbriant replies with a scalding flame, severely criticizing Kelly for his criticism as a thinly veiled stab at certain moderators.
The rest of Team Moderation weighs in with their thoughts on how moderation should go; in a fashion that (I find) is civil, reasonable, and fair (and not really criticising of kelly, just a polite response to or rebuttal of the points Kelly made).
I did NOT see any large-scale piling-up on Kelly, or at least not one where the pilers weren't trying to be polite about it.
eric343
Member of the Trade: Audiogeek: The "E" in META42
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I think the point the moderators have been trying to make is that
[size=medium]they're only human.[/size]
They have opinions, biases, likes, dislikes, pet peeves, moments of lucidity, and all the rest, just like everyone else. When they reply, they might reply as a member, or as a moderator. MacDEF tends to do the latter, whereas mbriant was obviously doing the former when he made that reply to kelly in the serious moderation thread.
Moderation cannot be done by computer. I think that there's bound to be good and bad moderation - that's just the way it works. But if there's a serious problem, Team Moderation will do their best to fix it; however they might leave it be if they feel it's better left be.
[size=medium]they're only human.[/size]
They have opinions, biases, likes, dislikes, pet peeves, moments of lucidity, and all the rest, just like everyone else. When they reply, they might reply as a member, or as a moderator. MacDEF tends to do the latter, whereas mbriant was obviously doing the former when he made that reply to kelly in the serious moderation thread.
Moderation cannot be done by computer. I think that there's bound to be good and bad moderation - that's just the way it works. But if there's a serious problem, Team Moderation will do their best to fix it; however they might leave it be if they feel it's better left be.
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Markl,
Quote:
Okay... Me being one of those mods, I feel I do have to add a couple of words...
My original post in that thread...
Quote:
Now, look at the thread further... The post I quoted was the SECOND post in that thread, so... to have said (not just in the quote that I just pulled, but also in previous posts) that two mods posted, so must've seen Kellys outburst does seem just a touch presumptuous...
Maybe i've got the whole idea of this forum wrong... who knows, but ~ I do NOT read every single post in a thread if I see something of relevance within a post beforehand...
Anyway ~ all that aside... it goes back to the equation that I made a couple of weeks ago, when Isotope240 felt wronged... that the equation of posts/mods/days that the forum has been going means that there are an average of 50 posts per day per mod to moderate...
So, seemingly for the second time it appears that we've slipped up... Maybe we should have noticed before your barrage of attacks against moderation here... but, as has been mentioned in THIS thread and others... Kellys ~ in fact everybodies actions, and mannerisms are accepted 'as is', if you did have a problem... and if no-one did notice, how about clicking that little link 'Report this post to a moderator', and explaining the unrest?
Yes, we may, and unfortunately DO overlook / miss bad posts... but, to the best of my knowledge of my fellow mods, and definetly in my case this is NOT intentional... I'm not paid to be here, I come here in my spare time ~ but that depends on how much spare time I have... this is NOT the same as a moderated chatroom where you are 'contracted' to host between set hours...
Yes, you have been wronged... I admit that, and I apologise for that also ~ but please, as you've asked everyone who reads this thread to look at THIS from your POV... how about you look at it from OUR (mods) POV... If you felt so wronged ~ quite rightly too, then click the 'report this post' link... If you'd have done that, then by all counts you could hang each and every single moderator out to dry... and we'd all have to stand here one by one and take the flak.
No, i'm not saying that i'll sit here drinking coke and smoking cigarettes until someone speaks up and complains... if that were the case, i'd ask for my moderator status to be taken away straight away... but, what I am saying is... definetly from my own personal point of view, and so far as I could guess, from every other mods point of view... this one post of Kellys that is in question was overlooked... innocently and you know what, I am sorry about that...
If that is what you want markl ~ a public apology then... I appreciate that, and DO apologise for not being more astute in this one thread... but, please appreciate as mentioned at the top of this post, I was quoting the second post in that thread... and did not read further (how you have a passion for the R10s, I also do for the CD1700s)... and also, that on a more general basis ~ I personally do not read all posts within a thread... I have a habit of skimming ~ Maybe this should be a lesson to me, and I should read threads from begining to end regardless of whether I post or not... I thank you markl, for pointing out a seemingly fatal flaw in my own personal moderation skills... may I learn from it
Sorry
Quote:
| Originally posted by markl 1. A Member with a long history of making rude comments toward me (*borderline* trolling me), posted yet another inflammatory remark meant to cause harm to my reputation on a board that I have supported from the beginning and contributed to in a (mostly) exemplary manner. This unnecessarily insulting post remained unaltered in the thread for two days before I had the chance to view it and respond. In the meantime, two Moderators replied in the thread after the offensive remarks, taking no note of them, and taking no action against the Member making the attack against me. |
Okay... Me being one of those mods, I feel I do have to add a couple of words...
My original post in that thread...
Quote:
| quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by DanG Sony's R&D for the MDR-R10 was allegedly used to produce the MDR-CD3000 and MDR-CD1700, so you could consider that as recouping their losses in that regard as well. Also consider that just because they might sell more headphones if they make more, who knows how much they profit off of each headphone sold? And who knows how many headphones they'd actually sell? Maybe one to two dozen worldwide in a year? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now, whilst there is about a $3,600 difference in cost between the R10 and the CD1700, I would like to think that they are related... in my (main) setup the CD1700s easily beat my Etymotics, on every front... they're great... but just need great front end electronics to show themselves up. Granted, i'm talking about a mass produced, mainstream product versus a limited edition high end unit... but maybe markls and hirsch's principles are right ~ that it all depends on what you drive your 'phones with... Just over a year ago I sold my original pair of CD1700s because I couldn't get to like their sound (running through my CD63SE & QED MB45)... and now, I can't live without them (albeit a different pair) I wonder how many other users would be amazed by 'subdued' 'phones if they really tried to system-match... I'd like to think thats what i've done, and now i'm reaping the dividends |
Now, look at the thread further... The post I quoted was the SECOND post in that thread, so... to have said (not just in the quote that I just pulled, but also in previous posts) that two mods posted, so must've seen Kellys outburst does seem just a touch presumptuous...
Maybe i've got the whole idea of this forum wrong... who knows, but ~ I do NOT read every single post in a thread if I see something of relevance within a post beforehand...
Anyway ~ all that aside... it goes back to the equation that I made a couple of weeks ago, when Isotope240 felt wronged... that the equation of posts/mods/days that the forum has been going means that there are an average of 50 posts per day per mod to moderate...
So, seemingly for the second time it appears that we've slipped up... Maybe we should have noticed before your barrage of attacks against moderation here... but, as has been mentioned in THIS thread and others... Kellys ~ in fact everybodies actions, and mannerisms are accepted 'as is', if you did have a problem... and if no-one did notice, how about clicking that little link 'Report this post to a moderator', and explaining the unrest?
Yes, we may, and unfortunately DO overlook / miss bad posts... but, to the best of my knowledge of my fellow mods, and definetly in my case this is NOT intentional... I'm not paid to be here, I come here in my spare time ~ but that depends on how much spare time I have... this is NOT the same as a moderated chatroom where you are 'contracted' to host between set hours...
Yes, you have been wronged... I admit that, and I apologise for that also ~ but please, as you've asked everyone who reads this thread to look at THIS from your POV... how about you look at it from OUR (mods) POV... If you felt so wronged ~ quite rightly too, then click the 'report this post' link... If you'd have done that, then by all counts you could hang each and every single moderator out to dry... and we'd all have to stand here one by one and take the flak.
No, i'm not saying that i'll sit here drinking coke and smoking cigarettes until someone speaks up and complains... if that were the case, i'd ask for my moderator status to be taken away straight away... but, what I am saying is... definetly from my own personal point of view, and so far as I could guess, from every other mods point of view... this one post of Kellys that is in question was overlooked... innocently and you know what, I am sorry about that...
If that is what you want markl ~ a public apology then... I appreciate that, and DO apologise for not being more astute in this one thread... but, please appreciate as mentioned at the top of this post, I was quoting the second post in that thread... and did not read further (how you have a passion for the R10s, I also do for the CD1700s)... and also, that on a more general basis ~ I personally do not read all posts within a thread... I have a habit of skimming ~ Maybe this should be a lesson to me, and I should read threads from begining to end regardless of whether I post or not... I thank you markl, for pointing out a seemingly fatal flaw in my own personal moderation skills... may I learn from it
Sorry
Jeff Guidry
Headphoneus Supremus
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I think, Jude, that your company should start developing a board moderating program. It could scan for mean remarks and hurt feelings calmly and without any hint of favoritism, and it could automatically scan all incoming posts.
I would call it.....Moderato 3000 (Italian sounding, no?)
You could make a mint, I'm telling you!
I would call it.....Moderato 3000 (Italian sounding, no?)
You could make a mint, I'm telling you!
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