Manufacturers Setting Prices for Retailers - Is it Legal?
Mar 14, 2010 at 8:09 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 44

Ridleyguy

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I am surprised this has not come up prominently in Forum threads, as it is an important issue for consumers. Without naming specific manufacturers, why isn't this, when it can be proven, considered to be an anti-trust violation in the U.S.?

If some manufacturers are in fact threatening retailers who discount MSRP pricing, we as consumers, should be concerned about this.
 
Mar 14, 2010 at 9:18 PM Post #2 of 44
Agree with your sentiment, but the SCOTUS, in its 2007 decision in Leegin Creative Leather Products, Inc. v. PSKS, Inc., threw decades of antitrust jurisprudence out the window by holding that resale price maintenance is not per se illegal. Rather, it is now subject to a rule of reason analysis--something that Sennheiser, and it would appear Beyerdynamic, have been taking advantage of with their new flagship phones. There has been some discussion of it in the HD800 threads. Regardless, I think you'll find that many here seem to believe that manufacturers can basically do what they want, and that if consumers don't like it, they don't have to buy it.

I do not share that view.
 
Mar 14, 2010 at 9:21 PM Post #3 of 44
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ridleyguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I am surprised this has not come up prominently in Forum threads, as it is an important issue for consumers. Without naming specific manufacturers, why isn't this, when it can be proven, considered to be an anti-trust violation in the U.S.?

If some manufacturers are in fact threatening retailers who discount MSRP pricing, we as consumers, should be concerned about this.



From Wikipedia:

"Colluding on price amongst competitors, also known as horizontal price fixing, is viewed as a per se violation of the Sherman Act regardless of the market impact or alleged efficiency of the action. In August 2008, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that vertical price fixing by a manufacturer and its retailers, also known as retail price maintenance, is not a per se violation."

So it would appear that a manufacturer setting market prices for their distributors is not illegal.
 
Mar 14, 2010 at 9:30 PM Post #4 of 44
Quote:

Originally Posted by k3oxkjo /img/forum/go_quote.gif
From Wikipedia:

So it would appear that a manufacturer setting market prices for their distributors is not illegal.



It's not per se illegal, but the behavior could still be illegal under a rule of reason analysis. Put another way, it is still a risky behavior, especially since the new rule has really yet to be tested under the new regimes at FTC and DOJ.
 
Mar 14, 2010 at 9:55 PM Post #5 of 44
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif
It's not per se illegal, but the behavior could still be illegal under a rule of reason analysis. Put another way, it is still a risky behavior, especially since the new rule has really yet to be tested under the new regimes at FTC and DOJ.


Well, I suspect that, not being per se illegal, there is the presumption of legality, that is that the burden of proof of illegality is on the accusor.

Much has been written about the cost to our economy of consumers "buying cheap", but it's a complex discussion and probably not appropriate here.

Kevin
 
Mar 14, 2010 at 10:00 PM Post #6 of 44
I thought they weren't setting prices, but rather saying what they can advertise. You'll come upon plenty of headphones (and other things) where you can't see the price until you put the item in the cart. Is that the practice the op is talking about?

It's definitely not illegal. It's a pain though. Someone should make a site aggregating the prices shown in carts, or something like that.
 
Mar 14, 2010 at 10:02 PM Post #7 of 44
Interesting that some large companies, in this day and age with the focus on corporate behaviour, would take the position that it is not per se "illegal" to develop their policies. This is a more challenging situation to address with private companies than with public companies, but it is still a very serious corporate governance issue IMO, and we as consumers should not let unacceptable corporate behaviour be tolerated. I for one would be prepared to support a letter from Head-Fiers to companies where there is proof that they are trying to avoid compliance/prosecution on a technical interpretation of the law. That being said, I can understand that the owners/administrators of Head-Fi may want to avoid getting involved taking an activist role for legal or other reasons.
 
Mar 14, 2010 at 10:10 PM Post #8 of 44
Quote:

Originally Posted by KCChiefsfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I thought they weren't setting prices, but rather saying what they can advertise. You'll come upon plenty of headphones (and other things) where you can't see the price until you put the item in the cart. Is that the practice the op is talking about?

It's definitely not illegal. It's a pain though. Someone should make a site aggregating the prices shown in carts, or something like that.



No I'm not talking about advertised vs actual selling prices, I'm talking about manufacturers setting prices for different countries they do business in, and requiring dealers to sell at that price, i.e the advertised and selling price are the same and the same for all dealers. Obviously this doesn't apply for an ebay, etc. sale where an individual consumer can sell something at any price he/she wants.
 
Mar 14, 2010 at 10:19 PM Post #9 of 44
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ridleyguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Interesting that some large companies, in this day and age with the focus on corporate behaviour, would take the position that it is not per se "illegal" to develop their policies. This is a more challenging situation to address with private companies than with public companies, but it is still a very serious corporate governance issue IMO, and we as consumers should not let unacceptable corporate behaviour be tolerated. I for one would be prepared to support a letter from Head-Fiers to companies where there is proof that they are trying to avoid compliance/prosecution on a technical interpretation of the law. That being said, I can understand that the owners/administrators of Head-Fi may want to avoid getting involved taking an activist role for legal or other reasons.


I would personally settle for corporations not doing what is unequivically illegal!
biggrin.gif


But as far as the specific issue of manufacturers setting retail prices, I am not sure that allowing that would not be in the greater common good, especially where there is significant horizontal competition. It may restrict the individual consumer from getting the best price on a specific product, but it may also allow "brick and mortar" businesses to remain competitive and this has benefit for the general economy in terms of employment, etc.
 
Mar 14, 2010 at 10:24 PM Post #10 of 44
It don't think it really has to do with what is legal or not... it's what they can get away with... What the market will bare.

Personally, I find it insulting that manufacturers try to prevent companies from selling the products at lower prices than they intended... In that case, all the price does is justify how exclusive an item is, not how valuable it is.
 
Mar 14, 2010 at 10:51 PM Post #11 of 44
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ridleyguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
No I'm not talking about advertised vs actual selling prices, I'm talking about manufacturers setting prices for different countries they do business in, and requiring dealers to sell at that price, i.e the advertised and selling price are the same and the same for all dealers. Obviously this doesn't apply for an ebay, etc. sale where an individual consumer can sell something at any price he/she wants.


That sounds like classic price fixing, although proving it would be difficult (I doubt a dealer would agree to testify against them).
 
Mar 15, 2010 at 12:00 AM Post #13 of 44
Apple has only corporate stores, i.e they are all owned by Apple, so your example isn't analagous to a vertical price maintenance scenario where the manufacturer has an arms length relationship to its dealers, i.e they are independent.
 
Mar 15, 2010 at 12:09 AM Post #14 of 44
The problem is, there are retailers in between the manufacturers and the public. These retailers, if they own a physical shop, need that profit margin to be able to survive. If all the online retailers just flood the market with items just a few dollars above the wholesale price, then all the brick and mortar stores will end up closing, not to mention possibly even online stores we know and love like Headroom, who depend on that margin as well.
 
Mar 15, 2010 at 12:20 AM Post #15 of 44
This is an easy issue to intertwine with other just as important, but distinctly different issues, as raised by Currawong above and others. The issue of vertical pricing maintanence is a free market competition issue, which does not separately mean that the survival of brick and mortar businesses is not a legitimate concern.

The bottom line for Head-Fiers, is that this is an issue that may be costing you personally hundreds or even thousands of dollars. Its up to you if you want to ignore it or collectively examine it further.

Here is some additional information on the Supreme Court Decision which hopefully is an accurate representation of the facts. Hopefully someone who is knowledgeable in this area can weigh in on it.

Vertical Price Fixing No Longer Illegal Per SeJune 29, 2007

In Leegin Creative Leather Products v. PSKS, Inc., the Supreme Court, rejecting the 96 year-old Dr. Miles precedent, held that an agreement between a manufacturer and a retailer to set the price that the retailer will charge (called vertical resale price maintenance) should not be deemed per se illegal under Section 1 of the Sherman Act. Now, “Vertical price restraints are to be judged according to the rule of reason.” Leegin was the last of four antitrust decisions in the 2006-07 Supreme Court term, all of which were decided in favor of the defendant(s).

Background

Leegin adopted a policy that it would do business only with retailers that followed its suggested retail prices. When Leegin discovered that PSKS was discounting its products, it suspended product shipments to PSKS, who then filed suit, alleging that Leegin’s pricing policy was a per se illegal vertical resale price maintenance agreement.

At trial, Leegin did not dispute that it had entered into vertical resale price maintenance agreements with its retailers, but instead contended that such agreements should be analyzed under the antitrust rule of reason. The District Court excluded Leegin’s proffered evidence that its policy was procompetitive. Without that evidence, the jury found Leegin’s policy illegal per se, and awarded PSKS $3.6 million in damages.

On appeal, the Fifth Circuit, though sympathetic to Leegin’s claim that the program enhanced competition, rejected it as a matter of law. The Circuit Court felt bound by the Supreme Court’s 1911 Dr. Miles decision, which held that minimum resale price maintenance agreements between manufacturers and retailers are per se illegal under the Sherman Act.

The Decision

In a 5-4 decision by Justice Kennedy, the Supreme Court overruled Dr. Miles and held that all vertical price restraints challenged under Section 1 of the Sherman Act – including agreements directly setting or establishing a minimum resale price – will now be analyzed under the rule of reason. The rule of reason, it said, is “the usual standard applied to determine if there is a violation of [Sherman Act] § 1” and per se illegality should be reserved for restraints that have “manifestly anticompetitive effects” and “lack any redeeming virtue.”

Not so with vertical resale price maintenance, the Court found, remarking that “economics literature is replete with procompetitive justifications for a manufacturer’s use of resale price maintenance.” As examples, the Court noted that resale price maintenance can encourage retailers to invest in providing services to consumers or in promotional efforts that increase their manufacturer’s sales. Resale price maintenance can also encourage entry by allowing manufacturers to induce “competent and aggressive” retailers to carry their new products. These examples closely echoed the justifications that Leegin attempted to offer for its own resale price maintenance program in the lower courts.

At the same time, the Court stressed that resale price maintenance agreements may have anticompetitive effects, and that such agreements should continue to be found illegal under the rule of reason when those anticompetitive effects outweigh the procompetitive benefits. Allowing manufacturers to dictate resale prices can facilitate a price-fixing agreement at the manufacturer level, by giving manufacturers an easy tool to detect firms that cheat on the agreement. Similarly, vertical price restraints can also assist a price-fixing agreement among competitive retailers. Finally, by creating large profit margins to participating retailers, vertical price restraints can also be used by a dominant firm to encourage retailers not to carry competitive products.

Given this conflict between the anticompetitive and procompetitive potential of vertical price restraints, the Court concluded that “It cannot be stated with any degree of confidence that resale price maintenance always or almost always tends to restrict competition and decrease output.” Thus, vertical resale price maintenance will be analyzed under the rule of reason.

The Court identified three factors that lower courts should take into account in determining whether a vertical price restraint is likely to have net procompetitive effects. First, they should consider the number of manufacturers in a given industry that use resale price maintenance. If a minority in the industry adopt the practice, then the restraint is less likely to be anticompetitive because consumers can seek out alternative manufacturers and retailers. Second, courts should consider the source of the price restraint; if the retailers were the impetus for the restraint, then there is a greater likelihood that the restraint is anticompetitive. Finally, courts should consider whether any of the involved manufacturers or retailers have market power, as the absence of market power at either level allows manufacturers to sell through alternative distribution channels and makes it less likely that a manufacturer could prevent its competitors’ products from reaching the market.

The Court also rejected the argument that stare decisis required upholding the Dr. Miles rule, regardless of its economic correctness. The Sherman Act, it noted, has always been treated as a common law statute and, therefore, antitrust law should “evolve to meet the dynamics of present economic conditions.”
 

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