[Soul_Est]

Just posted this on my blog here: The Next Computer: Growing Pains? « Gadgetic Musings and thought some of you may benefit from such research so here it is:

I hope this helps you all out and if anyone decides to try it, please let me know how it goes.

 

[Soul_Est]

OS Research:
Linux:
64 Studio:
Base: Debian Live and Ubuntu
Current Version: 3.0 Beta 3
Desktop Environment and Window Manager: Gnome and Metacity
Real-Time Kernel: Yes
Audio Subsystem: ALSA and JACK
Comments: There is still some work to do to bring it up to date with the other Linux operating systems. Was very easy to work with but had some trouble with audio playback. Will test again in the near future.
Site: 64 Studio | Have GNU/Linux your way!

ArchLinux:
Base: Linux From Scratch
Current Version: Rolling Release
Desktop Environment and Window Manager: Whatever is available
Real-Time Kernel: N/A
Audio Subsystem: N/A
Comments: Some work needs to be done to make it into what one needs but the results are well worth it. I used it extensively in the past on various systems.
Site: Arch Linux

Transmission OS:
Base: Debian Live and Ubuntu
Current Version: 3.0
Desktop Environment and Window Manager: Gnome and Metacity or Matchbox
Real-Time Kernel: Yes
Audio Subsystem: ALSA and JACK
Comments: You do have to pay for this one but you do get a lot for your money. It's the OS installed on the highly praised Indamixx Portable Studio.
Site: Home | :: Indamixx.com ::

puredyne:
Base: Debian Live and Ubuntu
Current Version: 9.10
Desktop Environment and Window Manager: Gnome and Metacity
Real-Time Kernel: Yes
Audio Subsystem: ALSA and JACK
Comments: May become more popular than 64 Studio due to being more current. Will be testing later today.
Site: puredyne


RAM Disk Research:
I found this to be a very intriguing thread especially when apaige posted their procedure for creating and populating a ramdisk with part of the OS AND having it as part of a RAID 1 array! It's been referred to as 'abused' RAID and I'll continue to refer to this unique setup as that. Here's the page as I can't link to the post directly: Arch Linux Forums / Running Arch Entirely in RAM!!??


And with that, I'm off to bed.

I'll post some of my research for Windows later in the week.

 

[Slash47]

Your idea is basically a modular pc? Why are you calling it 'high performance'?

I don't understand the appeal of this particular configuration.

(BTW an Atom board doesn't need 4Gb, ever. And WD GP's would be plenty fast and consume less power. And 1 or 1,5Tb drives would give more Gb/$ I think.)

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slash47 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Your idea is basically a modular pc? Why are you calling it 'high performance'? I don't understand the appeal of this particular configuration. (BTW an Atom board doesn't need 4Gb, ever. And WD GP's would be plenty fast and consume less power. And 1 or 1,5Tb drives would give more Gb/$ I think.)

+1

A 1TB HDD will use as much power as your 640GB, and hold nearly as much as two of them. Get two 1TB and you'll save nearly 2W idle according to the WD fact sheet.

SSDs have comparatively low consumption when in use because they don't have to spin up. If you're spending $1,100 CDN on an Atom system, you could at least spring for a SSD as a boot device. The system I built uses one, and it's such a great (but expensive) addition.

Also, if you don't need all that storage space now, get one and buy the second (or third or fourth) later when they get even cheaper/more efficient than they are now. Unless using RAID, I don't think anyone should buy two HDDs. The larger ones are almost always cheaper per GB than smaller ones, and their prices drop so fast that by the time a second is of any use, it's half as expensive.

I wouldn't call an Atom system high performance by any stretch of the imagination. Good performance per watt, which you're aiming for, but high performance is misleading. My system from three years ago had 50% more processing power, but obviously drew more electricity.

And if you're not going to use it, disable Hyper-threading on that one. I think it uses more power, and unless a program's going to use 3-4 cores it's useless.

 

[Hybrys]

RAID arrays are overrated these days. A better solution is to externally backup your media. This is because even in a mirrored array, you run the risk of the drives mirroring bad sectors/files that sometimes can't be recovered (Less likely than a normal drive, but, MUCH more devastating). It also consumes much more power than needed.

Newegg.com - Western Digital Caviar Green WD20EADS 2TB 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive

One of these partitioned well, at that sale price, backed up externally... Beautiful. 2.48 TB @ $556, or 2 TB @ 1/4 the cost; $150.

Edit: Full system; Better for cheaper.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-002-_-Product - $269
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820148161 - $42
Drive above - $150. AND IT'S DONE.

Total: $462. Less than half your price, without the weird and ridiculous external RAID array. Hell, another 2 TB green in an enclosure, $200. (Limited to USB, but, who cares? You don't need the best of the best, especially in data transfer, as it will save you NOTHING to 5 minutes of your time.) Find a backup utility, and set it up to do intelligent backups that turn the system off after completion with one click.

 

[Soul_Est]

Just to clarify, a lot of the information can be found by reading my blog post that's been linked to in the first post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slash47 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Your idea is basically a modular pc? Why are you calling it 'high performance'? I don't understand the appeal of this particular configuration. (BTW an Atom board doesn't need 4Gb, ever. And WD GP's would be plenty fast and consume less power. And 1 or 1,5Tb drives would give more Gb/$ I think.)

I would need 4GB for the software configuration I'll be implementing and this system will also be my main play system while my MacBook remains work focused. The premise for the software implementation is part of the OS resides in RAM and is linked to its equivalent partition on the main drive in RAID 1 configuration. I'll also be using The GIMP and a number of memory intensive programs at the same time. Modularity is key since I do plan on moving and traveling in the near future and hope to carry my systems easily. It would also make upgrading storage, sound and graphics easier in the future. I agree on the 3.5" drives but stuck with 2.5" drives to keep things smaller and more portable. These GP drives look quite enticing AND they're better for storage capacity. I want to find a way of powering them via USB if possible (researching this will be fun

). Thanks for the tip!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Head Injury /img/forum/go_quote.gif +1 A 1TB HDD will use as much power as your 640GB, and hold nearly as much as two of them. Get two 1TB and you'll save nearly 2W idle according to the WD fact sheet. SSDs have comparatively low consumption when in use because they don't have to spin up. If you're spending $1,100 CDN on an Atom system, you could at least spring for a SSD as a boot device. The system I built uses one, and it's such a great (but expensive) addition. Also, if you don't need all that storage space now, get one and buy the second (or third or fourth) later when they get even cheaper/more efficient than they are now. Unless using RAID, I don't think anyone should buy two HDDs. The larger ones are almost always cheaper per GB than smaller ones, and their prices drop so fast that by the time a second is of any use, it's half as expensive. I wouldn't call an Atom system high performance by any stretch of the imagination. Good performance per watt, which you're aiming for, but high performance is misleading. My system from three years ago had 50% more processing power, but obviously drew more electricity. And if you're not going to use it, disable Hyper-threading on that one. I think it uses more power, and unless a program's going to use 3-4 cores it's useless.

I called it high-performance since I viewed it as that in relation to the performance it should have normally and the power it consumes. I'll be using all four cores though for audio and possibly video work (only if the software I'll be using supports VDPAU).

I had considered SSD drives but was concerned about performance, capacity and longevity when compared to buying a large capacity drive and short stroking it (using only 1/10th the total capacity) to bring its performance up near SSD levels. I'll definitely look into it again. Thanks for bringing it up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hybrys /img/forum/go_quote.gif RAID arrays are overrated these days. A better solution is to externally backup your media. This is because even in a mirrored array, you run the risk of the drives mirroring bad sectors/files that sometimes can't be recovered (Less likely than a normal drive, but, MUCH more devastating). It also consumes much more power than needed. Newegg.com - Western Digital Caviar Green WD20EADS 2TB 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive One of these partitioned well, at that sale price, backed up externally... Beautiful. 2.48 TB @ $556, or 2 TB @ 1/4 the cost; $150. Edit: Full system; Better for cheaper. Newegg.com - ECS MD120 NVIDIA ION 2 x 200Pin NVIDIA ION graphics processor Mini / Booksize Barebone System - Mini / Booksize Barebone Systems - $269 Newegg.com - Crucial 2GB (2 x 1GB) 200-Pin DDR2 SO-DIMM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Laptop Memory Model CT2KIT12864AC800 - Laptop Memory - $42 Drive above - $150. AND IT'S DONE. Total: $462. Less than half your price, without the weird and ridiculous external RAID array. Hell, another 2 TB green in an enclosure, $200. (Limited to USB, but, who cares? You don't need the best of the best, especially in data transfer, as it will save you NOTHING to 5 minutes of your time.) Find a backup utility, and set it up to do intelligent backups that turn the system off after completion with one click.

I agree on not using RAID for data storage (I've had LVM2 arrays go down for odd reasons). I was planning on just mirroring everything manually via a script run by cron. Looks like the money saved in your build is quite a lot *whistles*. I'll definitely look into it. Thank you.


Considering how popular the 3.5" drives and SSD drives are, I'll into them and see how I can add them into the system and keep it somewhat portable. Thank you all for the tips and keep 'em coming! I'll post part of my software research later today. (it includes Linux and Windows)

 

[Hybrys]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul_Est /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree on not using RAID for data storage (I've had LVM2 arrays go down for odd reasons). I was planning on just mirroring everything manually via a script run by cron. Looks like the money saved in your build is quite a lot *whistles*. I'll definitely look into it. Thank you. Considering how popular the 3.5" drives and SSD drives are, I'll into them and see how I can add them into the system and keep it somewhat portable. Thank you all for the tips and keep 'em coming! I'll post part of my software research later today. (it includes Linux and Windows)

These days 2.5" drives are worthless unless you're using a laptop... Very little power savings vs 'special' power saving drives. They also save little space.

If you do put another 2 TB in a USB enclosure, can find an enclosure that can power a full 3.5" drive over USB (more power savings), and have a cron script as a logoff script, you're golden.

SSD drives are still very new and imperfect. Limited power savings, limited capacities, limited transfer speed gains, and massively expensive. I've been waiting for a nice 128gb to not cost a boatload (almost there!) just for a boot drive in my gaming setup. But, for media, you don't need the bandwidth.

OS research... I'd be interested to see what you come up with. I, of course, use Windows because I game. If I didn't, I'd probably be on Ubuntu.

 

[Slash47]

Aha, so you'll be using part of the 4Gb as a RAM partition? Wouldn't it be wise to implement a single internal HD to 'store' the RAM and hold the OS? A 40Gb Intel X25-M G2 would be ideal if you disable some space consuming OS features.

'High-performance' is inaccurate, however. This system would perform on the bottom end of the pc performance ladder, no matter which way you look at it. And the sound quality wouldn't be great either.

For this money and your requirments, I'd buy an ION EEE PC and a solid USB DAC. If needed, add external stuff. Just as modular, same performance and much more versatile because the core (the EEE) works standalone.

 

[Hybrys]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slash47 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Aha, so you'll be using part of the 4Gb as a RAM partition? Wouldn't it be wise to implement a single internal HD to 'store' the RAM and hold the OS? A 40Gb Intel X25-M G2 would be ideal if you disable some space consuming OS features. For this money and your requirments, I'd buy an ION EEE PC and a solid USB DAC. If needed, add external stuff. Just as modular, same performance and much more versatile because the core (the EEE) works standalone.

Wut? Two things about this, why would a RAM partition be used? And a SSD for booting/OS/programs makes no sense on a low end system such as this.

Why would you recommend a netbook for someone that wants to do light graphical work? Unless you mean an EEE Top, which would make less sense. Or an EEE Box, which makes even LESS sense, when looking at my links. (which ends up nearly pre-configured, minus an OS he might not use, cheaper, more ram, and a MASSIVELY larger HD.)

Quote:

'High-performance' is inaccurate, however. This system would perform on the bottom end of the pc performance ladder, no matter which way you look at it. And the sound quality wouldn't be great either.

High performance is a relative term. Why do you have so much of a problem with it being used? It would be a high performance micro PC. And, if you would actually care to READ his stuff, he says that he'd be using a uDAC/FiiO E7 for sound, thus quality is a void point.


@Soul_Est
What's your budget and size constraints? If you maintain $1000, I could probably try to put together another setup, but non-ION/Atom based. Power consumption would go up SLIGHTLY (if proper components are used and with intelligent undervolting), but you could see a HUGE performance increase.

Also, for future reference, US/Can/Elsewhere? (My favorite vendor is NCIX, a Canadian vendor that allows price matching, where I've saved $300+ (!) configuring a full system. I'd set some links up from them, with Price Matches)

 

[Soul_Est]

@Slash47:
That is why I went with Atom. It's performance maybe down there, yet it can be improved to near the levels of my MacBook for everyday (an studio work) by using a RAM drive. Also I need a low-power system to cut down on the power I consume and the amount I pay in electrical bills.


@Hybrys:
My budget actually is built around the system I'm designed (I'm also working on a virtual build of HTPC, MythTV backend + frontend combo just for fun). If I manage to keep budgeting like I have over the last few months a $1000.00 system is no problem. As for size, I don't mind if the system grew a bit, I merely designed it to be as small as possible since I was going to keep everything else (including the boot drive) external (and possibly improve cooling by using a 140mm fan to cool the entire mainboard).

I'm in Canada definitely until I can travel (hopefully within two years). My favorite vendor is NCIX as well. My girlfriend and I have brought products from them and have never had a problem except with Purolator.


I'll post my software research later today once I find it in my bookmarks (did for an earlier project). Thanks to everyone for the great ideas, I'll change some of the components in the planned system. Keep those tips coming!

 

[Slash47]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hybrys /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wut? Two things about this, why would a RAM partition be used? And a SSD for booting/OS/programs makes no sense on a low end system such as this. Why would you recommend a netbook for someone that wants to do light graphical work? Unless you mean an EEE Top, which would make less sense. Or an EEE Box, which makes even LESS sense, when looking at my links. (which ends up nearly pre-configured, minus an OS he might not use, cheaper, more ram, and a MASSIVELY larger HD.) High performance is a relative term. Why do you have so much of a problem with it being used? It would be a high performance micro PC. And, if you would actually care to READ his stuff, he says that he'd be using a uDAC/FiiO E7 for sound, thus quality is a void point. ...

Sorry but I don't consider a uDAC to deliver great sound. I can read, don't worry. I'm just saying what I'd consider easy to use and good value. And I thought he'd use a RAM partition because 4Gb makes no sense on an Atom system otherwise.

 

[Hybrys]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slash47 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sorry but I don't consider a uDAC to deliver great sound.

Have you heard one? And, it's great for the cost.

 

[Slash47]

Yes, else I wouldn't say what I did.

 

[oohms]

Saving money on power bills by spending it on a new computer is kinda a false economy.

That said, its pretty easy to build a cheap low power pc
- If you don't game or do a lot of CAD/real time 3d rendering it doesn't matter what graphics you have.
- SSD's are useless for slow pcs like atoms

If you are travelling, consider an eee box + upgrade the hard drive to something bigger, otherwise i would get any atom board, a pci sound card (since it looks like you want to use it for music), a 2TB hard drive and a cheap case for it all.

 

[J.Pocalypse]

Spec wise, it's sounds a lot like my Asus Eee PC 1201N. At half the price of your build. A good 4GB RAM upgrade is going to cost me $80. I already own a 1TB HDD.. Done.