[BoyElroy]

Here's a question for the "Rings" fans out there:

Everyone who's read the books or seen the movie knows that Arwen resigns herself to a doomed mortal life on Middle Earth after the last of the Elven ships sails without her from the Grey Havens. She dies broken hearted after Aragorn dies and leaves her alone, surely a great tragedy.

And yet, in the Appendices to the "Rings", there's a passage that says that AFTER Aragorn dies, Legolas and Gimli build an Elven boat from some Elven wood and sail away from Middle Earth together for the land of the elves.

So it seems pretty clear that the friggin' elf and dwarf could have taken Arwen with them, but decided not to! They left her behind, ditched her -- now how cold is that?

Or am I missing something here?

 

[Born2bwire]

Quote:

Originally posted by BoyElroy Or am I missing something here?

Yes, a life.

 

[MD1032]

Whoa! I gotta get around to reading the appendices!

 

[BoyElroy]

Born2bwire--

Quote:

Yes, a life.

Hehe...well, just to show you that I do have a life, I'm off to do my laundary, followed by an overdue apartment cleaning. And then watching my two cats fight for an hour or so. So there.

 

[00940]

I should check (I've not the book on hand right here) but doesn't Arwen fully embrace the fate of humans as soon as she choose a mortal life ? And thus, after her death, she would go to the special place Illuvatar prepared for humans. A place the Elves know nothing about. And if she shares the fate of the Elves, she will go back to Valinor anyway, after a stay in the cavern of Mandos. Taking her to Valinor doesn't really make sense.

Furthermore, the book, as the silmarillon, is conceived as oral tales written down, and thus are incoherent at purpose.

edit : and anyway, do they forget her or does she refuse to go?

 

[Ticky]

I did browse through the appendices. Apparently only the survivors who were in the "fellowship" left Middle Earth. If I am not mistaken, Sam also left Middle Earth after his daugther got married and his wife passed away.

I suppose an epic is not such without some amount of tragedy.

 

[BoyElroy]

Hey there 00940 and Ticky,

In the movie, at least, Elrond seems to make the point that Arwen will be left behind because all the ships will have left by the time Aragorn dies. Even the books seem to imply that's its a logistics issue.

Arwen, having Elven blood, would have an automatic visa, as it were, to the land of Elves, wouldn't she?

Maybe she talked too much or something so Legolas and Gimli left her behind.

 

[taylor]

No, she gives up her immortality and becomes a human, so she can't go to the west.

It's been a few years since I read them, but wasn't there something about how Elves, when they die, go to the Halls Of Waiting and are reborn into Valinor, whilst the men who die are reborn into different worlds. So since Arwen becomes human, she dies and is reborn in a different world.

 

[Born2bwire]

Dammit I gotta do my laundry too but I'm in the clear on rent, I paid for two months last time so I wouldn't be overdue again.

Ok, I can't believe I'm actually answering this but, reading the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen in appendix A one should note that Arwen during the winter of Aragorn's death and left Gondor upon his death. Legolas lived in Ithilien which is south of Gondor so the question is when did he decide to sail down the river to the sea (was the same year of Aragorn's death) as to whether or not Arwen was present to even go with. I'll leave all that to the... fanatics... that write fan fiction.

The appendixes are rather interesting and given the scope of the story I feel that they are a necessary companion. They have details that go into the events that occurred afterwards and some of the history that occurred prior. It helps to give a better sense of closure to it all but some people just can't leave things well enough alone

.

 

[00940]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ticky I did browse through the appendices. Apparently only the survivors who were in the "fellowship" left Middle Earth. If I am not mistaken, Sam also left Middle Earth after his daugther got married and his wife passed away.

actually, sam had the right to go because he carried the ring for a while.

taylor : thanks to confirm, i wasn't sure about that.

 

[archosman]

Elven wood? Hmm...

 

[dSquared]

There's also mention in the books about the last conversation between Elrond and Arwen (something to the effect of, they would be parted not only in this world, but the next and then going to say that there's no record of what they said), alluding to the consequences of her permanent choice to be human.

If you're really nerdy, like me, you'll recall that Elrond (and his children) get the choice to be human or elf up until the time that Elrond leaves Middle Earth.

And if you're wondering why a dwarf gets to go the West, buried somewhere in the mythology is a mention that Galadriel intercedes for Gimli and gets him permission.

If you're an ubernerd, like me, in the FOTR director-writer commentary, they talk about Liv Tyler's line about "what grace. . .let it pass to him [Frodo]", when they just had the showdown w/ the Ringwraiths at the ford, is an allusion to the part in the books (chapter 6 of ROTK, several paragraphs into the chapter) where she gives Frodo her place to go to the West.

 

[daycart1]

Quote:

Originally posted by dSquared And if you're wondering why a dwarf gets to go the West, buried somewhere in the mythology is a mention that Galadriel intercedes for Gimli and gets him permission.

Yes, it is not a question of ship logistics, but a question of whether one has been granted a "place" over the sea. Any non-elf would need a special ruling from the powers that be. The Gimli thing is presented as one version of the story; it says that if true, Galadriel might have done the special intercession.

It also says that Legolas built his ship; it is true there were no more ships waiting at the Haven to ferry elves.

 

[redshifter]

here is the recently uncovered "lost appendix" of lotr. maybe this will shed some light:



THE SECRET DIARY OF ARAGORN SON OF ARATHORN

Day One:

Ringwraiths killed: 4. V. good.
Met up with Hobbits. Walked forty miles. Skinned a squirrel and ate it.
Still not King.


Day Four:

Stuck on mountain with Hobbits. Boromir really annoying.
Not King yet.

Day Six:
Orcs killed: none. Disappointing. Stubble update: I look rugged and manly. Yes!
Keep wanting to drop-kick Gimli. Holding myself back.
Still not King.

Day Ten:

Sorry no entries lately. V. dark in Mines of Moria. Big Baelrog.
Not King today either.

Day Eleven:
Orcs killed: 7. V. good. Stubble update: Looking mangy.

Legolas may be hotter than me.
I wonder if he would like me if I was King?

Day 28:

Beginning to find Frodo disturbingly attractive. Have a feeling if I make a move, Sam would kill me. Also, hairy feet kind of a turn-off.
Still not King.

Day 30:
In Lothlorien. Think Galadriel was hitting on me. Saucy wench.

Nice chat with Boromir. He's not so bad.
Took a shower. Yay!
But still not King.

Day 32:
Orcs killed: none. Stubble update: subtly hairy.

Legolas told me that a shadow and a threat had been growing in his mind.

I think Legolas might be kinda gay.

Nope, not King.

Day 33:
Orcs killed: Countless thousands. V. good.

Boromir killed by Orcs. Bummer. Though he died bravely in my arms, am now quite sure that he was very definitely gay.
Not so sure about Gimli either.
RIP Boromir.
Still not King, but at least Boromir seemed to think I was. Might however have been blood loss.

Day 34:
Frodo went to Mordor. Said he was going alone, but took Sam with him. Why?

My God, is everyone in this movie gay but me?

Not so sure about me either.

Still not King, goddammit.

 

[daycart1]

LOL!

Back in the late 60's or early 70's a spoof book "Bored of the Rings" appeared. It was really funny.