gimmeheadroom
Headphoneus Supremus
Oops I just suggested Audio-gd M1 in the other thread, I should have said R-1. If you have the room and can spend 2K get the R8 Mk2 and you will never grow out of it.
Looking for "warmish" DAC for around $1,000
- Thread starter exander
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]eep
Headphoneus Supremus
I don't think the new Ladder Schumann dac has been shared? It's a similar dac that got high praise
sajunky
Headphoneus Supremus
Denafrips Ares 12th and Pontus12th get my recommendation too. These versions come with a true NOS. There is a teething problem with wrong handling of intersample overloads, it can be temporary avoided by reducing volume by 3dB or switching to NOS mode.
sajunky
Headphoneus Supremus
It looks like coming from the same designer desk or even a factory. Another Denafrips OEM, my bet. It comes coincidently with Ares 12th release, indication that they had few projects running in parallel and didn't want waste a design that was rejected. The most popular OEM is Musician's Pegasus. It is nice to have a choice, but why pay more for a similar performance? Before Ares 12th Pegasus had an edge having I2S port, this one comes in the wrong time.
Used Metrum Onyx but will be like ~ $1400
]eep
Headphoneus Supremus
Well that's what I thought on first impression. But as you guys know, it's not just about what chip you use, or what technique but about implementation. The power supply and output stage and the input stage matter a lot. It's good to have a choice. As long as you know what is what.
I think I would have like the 12th anniversary edition of the Ares II because of the i²s, but now I have the Rose Audio RS250 (no i²s) it's rather moot. Anyway, it is good to have options.
sajunky
Headphoneus Supremus
It doesn't say anything about output stage. It could be a passive as in Denafrips. But when looking at the photo of the ladder, it doesn't look the same. There is an unusually long row of unary resistors. This part is not a typical R2R. In a Denafrips ladder there are used for FIR-32 hardware DSD filtering, but there are only few rows.
So it looks like a segmented ladder architecture. A part of is R2R, with four MSB bits split into an unary ladder. It needs 16-1=15 rows for decoding 4-bits section with unary resistor ladder, there is still enough rows for a typical FIR-32 filter.
You know, I am not big fan of segmented architecture, but this arrangement allows use lower precision of resistors to achieve the same distortion levels. Lets fan begin, but not for my money.
Attachments
pataburd
Headphoneus Supremus
Am in a quandary: Musician Pegasus or Audio GD R1? This may very well be my last DAC purchase.
]eep
Headphoneus Supremus
You are aware of the reputation of Musician Audio when it comes to service? Ie: nonexistent. Have you considered Denafrips? (excellent service and cheaper).
pataburd
Headphoneus Supremus
Thank you for the reply.
No. Didn't know that about Musician.
Right now I am considering: Denafrips 12th, Musician Pegasus and Audio GD R1.
Am having a difficult time finding more reviews for the AGD, plus that brand name seems to be polarizing on what threads I have managed to find.
(Honestly, though, I am leaning toward the AGD R1 2021--don't fully understand why.)
No. Didn't know that about Musician.
Right now I am considering: Denafrips 12th, Musician Pegasus and Audio GD R1.
Am having a difficult time finding more reviews for the AGD, plus that brand name seems to be polarizing on what threads I have managed to find.
(Honestly, though, I am leaning toward the AGD R1 2021--don't fully understand why.)
]eep
Headphoneus Supremus
I found this one, that did not help me like it
https://alpha-audio.net/review/multitest-the-best-dac-for-1000-euros/2
https://alpha-audio.net/review/multitest-the-best-dac-for-1000-euros/2
sajunky
Headphoneus Supremus
@pataburd.
The R1 review above is not very helpful, as it compare R2R sound to Delta-Sigma type. On your list there are R2R designs. Unfortunately reviewers try to avoid direct comparison of a different R2R brands. Unlike brands focusing on DS rechnology that depends on a chip, R2R brands carry similar house of sound across the entire price range.
Musicians has a new model Draco perhaps to compete with "take a bite" model Audio GD R2R-11Mk2, but I have no idea how it stands against. But comparisons of R2R-11 against Bifrost 2 which is also very dynamic, show BF2 losing to Audio GD on low level details during transients. It is characterised as a "black background".
Musicians carry a sound similar to Denafrips. If you like laid back and relaxing sound, Denafrips should be on your list. Musicians fans claim that is more energetic. It may, but technology is the same, it cannot extend to far. Marketing is more noisy, but technical support is behind. Lame users are responsible for it as well, as it took one year since a release to discover that Pegasus HDMI port was not functional. In fact, Pegasus more compete against Ares 2 than Pontus (as marketed), and is more expensive. Musicians still do not have a real NOS, it is why Ares 12th model looks for me the best in this ranking.
Audio GD on the other side has no marketing, just users feedback, but service is professional and honest. Sound is very involving, punchy and energetic without losing details (see BF2). According to the reviews sound is more similar in character to the Rockna than other R2R brands. I was surprised with my $350 R2R-11 that it carries all properties of a high-end sound in terms of a natural reproduction, while of course refinement is on the low scale. I think lower than Ares 2, but had no opportunity to compare both on the same system.
R-1 is much better in terms of refinement (the same R-28). In the latest version a gap between R-1 and a higher priced R-8Mk2 has increased, as R-1 still do not have galvanic isolator on USB port, but otherwise is still very good buy. Before release of R-8 2021, R-1 was a real bargain. It has four R2R ladders, fully balanced from a ladder to the output, from this point on view closer to Pontus.
In the higher range there a good comparison between Denafrips Venus and Audio GD R-7. It was an older R-7 2020 model. R-1 is still based on the same technology, maybe you should look at.
[EDIT] the latest R-1 model use asynchronous USB transfers (with no additional reclocking), so its electronic board is on the R-8 2021 level, only missing a galvanic isolator.
The R1 review above is not very helpful, as it compare R2R sound to Delta-Sigma type. On your list there are R2R designs. Unfortunately reviewers try to avoid direct comparison of a different R2R brands. Unlike brands focusing on DS rechnology that depends on a chip, R2R brands carry similar house of sound across the entire price range.
Musicians has a new model Draco perhaps to compete with "take a bite" model Audio GD R2R-11Mk2, but I have no idea how it stands against. But comparisons of R2R-11 against Bifrost 2 which is also very dynamic, show BF2 losing to Audio GD on low level details during transients. It is characterised as a "black background".
Musicians carry a sound similar to Denafrips. If you like laid back and relaxing sound, Denafrips should be on your list. Musicians fans claim that is more energetic. It may, but technology is the same, it cannot extend to far. Marketing is more noisy, but technical support is behind. Lame users are responsible for it as well, as it took one year since a release to discover that Pegasus HDMI port was not functional. In fact, Pegasus more compete against Ares 2 than Pontus (as marketed), and is more expensive. Musicians still do not have a real NOS, it is why Ares 12th model looks for me the best in this ranking.
Audio GD on the other side has no marketing, just users feedback, but service is professional and honest. Sound is very involving, punchy and energetic without losing details (see BF2). According to the reviews sound is more similar in character to the Rockna than other R2R brands. I was surprised with my $350 R2R-11 that it carries all properties of a high-end sound in terms of a natural reproduction, while of course refinement is on the low scale. I think lower than Ares 2, but had no opportunity to compare both on the same system.
R-1 is much better in terms of refinement (the same R-28). In the latest version a gap between R-1 and a higher priced R-8Mk2 has increased, as R-1 still do not have galvanic isolator on USB port, but otherwise is still very good buy. Before release of R-8 2021, R-1 was a real bargain. It has four R2R ladders, fully balanced from a ladder to the output, from this point on view closer to Pontus.
In the higher range there a good comparison between Denafrips Venus and Audio GD R-7. It was an older R-7 2020 model. R-1 is still based on the same technology, maybe you should look at.
[EDIT] the latest R-1 model use asynchronous USB transfers (with no additional reclocking), so its electronic board is on the R-8 2021 level, only missing a galvanic isolator.
Last edited:
pataburd
Headphoneus Supremus
sajunky,
Thank you very much for the detailed response.
I may just pull the trigger on an R-1 (2021). Denafrips has certainly gotten the "lion's share" of attention, perhaps due to "first-out-of-the-gate" and marketing advantage (akin to Chobani Greek yoghurt).
Some listeners/reviewers claim that Audio GD, dollar-for-dollar, are among the best products, period, based on quality parts and design.
Thanks again!
Thank you very much for the detailed response.
I may just pull the trigger on an R-1 (2021). Denafrips has certainly gotten the "lion's share" of attention, perhaps due to "first-out-of-the-gate" and marketing advantage (akin to Chobani Greek yoghurt).
Some listeners/reviewers claim that Audio GD, dollar-for-dollar, are among the best products, period, based on quality parts and design.
Thanks again!
]eep
Headphoneus Supremus
Denafrips was not the first to come out with an R2R dac by a long margin. But the first real discrete r2r in a complete and affordable package under a 1000.
The attention to the 'obsolete' R2R dac started over 15 years ago by the Japanese 47labs Shigiraki and Audio Note. I almost bought the Chinese Opera Audio CD 160 linear that used the vintage Philips tda1543 chip. But then I found I a cheap Chinese 4 Philips chip design that had a lot of potential but not quite the quality.
I started modifying that and did a lot of advocating for R2R. I have taken a lot of flac and arsenine comments for that, 'you can't do this you can't do that' 'it's not in the white paper' 'you get distortion' 'it measures clearly inferior'. And quite frankly, I'm fed up with that. I know what it sounds like and I've compared it to some really expensive gear. I learned to trust my insights.
My own modded dacs still work fine and sound great. They can handle 24/96 PCM which gives it a big advantage over redbook CD quality (phase integrity without rolloff).
The journey researching and modification of that chip obviously leads to the desire for more. And since that lies in DSD, and discrete instead of IC, only without enough money, I stayed with my Teradak for a long time. Then came Soekris with their boards. But they didn't jive with my research. And it wasn't even a kit. To much hassle and prices higher than my Teradak.
And then came the first Holo Audio Spring that had it all. Including a very high price. And only a few years later, finally I discovered Denafrips. Or, Denafrips had the same vision and develop their brand. I now use the Ares II every day and I'm satisfied with it.
I have now put my focus back to my first love: vinyl. I have kept it alive all during the 'dark ages' where it was hard to find music on lp. But now even lots of music from the 90-ies and 00's are coming out on vinyl for the first time. And it beats the crap out of digital. Even though I have just bought a decent server (with a built in sigma delta dac) for convenience and discovery, my main focus is now back where it belongs.
Even if R2R comes closest to vinyl, it still isn't analog. And even if all music nowadays is digitally sourced, it still sounds better. Ok, we can argue about bass and distortion, but dynamics and realism (detail, space and air) is unrivaled. And it makes you connect with the music. For now there's no use in pouring money in a better dac for a while. I'm satisfied with the Ares II for now.
The attention to the 'obsolete' R2R dac started over 15 years ago by the Japanese 47labs Shigiraki and Audio Note. I almost bought the Chinese Opera Audio CD 160 linear that used the vintage Philips tda1543 chip. But then I found I a cheap Chinese 4 Philips chip design that had a lot of potential but not quite the quality.
I started modifying that and did a lot of advocating for R2R. I have taken a lot of flac and arsenine comments for that, 'you can't do this you can't do that' 'it's not in the white paper' 'you get distortion' 'it measures clearly inferior'. And quite frankly, I'm fed up with that. I know what it sounds like and I've compared it to some really expensive gear. I learned to trust my insights.
My own modded dacs still work fine and sound great. They can handle 24/96 PCM which gives it a big advantage over redbook CD quality (phase integrity without rolloff).
The journey researching and modification of that chip obviously leads to the desire for more. And since that lies in DSD, and discrete instead of IC, only without enough money, I stayed with my Teradak for a long time. Then came Soekris with their boards. But they didn't jive with my research. And it wasn't even a kit. To much hassle and prices higher than my Teradak.
And then came the first Holo Audio Spring that had it all. Including a very high price. And only a few years later, finally I discovered Denafrips. Or, Denafrips had the same vision and develop their brand. I now use the Ares II every day and I'm satisfied with it.
I have now put my focus back to my first love: vinyl. I have kept it alive all during the 'dark ages' where it was hard to find music on lp. But now even lots of music from the 90-ies and 00's are coming out on vinyl for the first time. And it beats the crap out of digital. Even though I have just bought a decent server (with a built in sigma delta dac) for convenience and discovery, my main focus is now back where it belongs.
Even if R2R comes closest to vinyl, it still isn't analog. And even if all music nowadays is digitally sourced, it still sounds better. Ok, we can argue about bass and distortion, but dynamics and realism (detail, space and air) is unrivaled. And it makes you connect with the music. For now there's no use in pouring money in a better dac for a while. I'm satisfied with the Ares II for now.
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