[Uncle Erik]

Do NOT go into the law for money.

Sure, the salaries look promising, but if you work them out per hour, sometimes the secretaries earn more. The law also has a way of devouring free time. I managed to get away for CanJam, but had to go back in Monday morning and I've been at the office to midnight every night since.

I still haven't unpacked my rig from CanJam. Last night, or I should say this morning, when I got in, I used my spare 20 minutes or so I had to hold and pet the cats for awhile. They needed the attention. So it's been work, a lttle time snuggling with the kitties, six hours of sleep, pay a few bills while at the office, go home and repeat. In between work, I take little breaks to pick up the iPhone and post here - they don't like personal use of the computers. It's not like this for everyone, but you will not get your dream job out of law school. When you have over $100k of student loan debt, you take what you can get and stick around if they treat you OK. That's not to say you actually enjoy it.

Further, most associates don't see a courtroom formfive or six years, if then. The rest of the job involves shuffling enormous stacks of paper in very complex ways. I got lucky with the court thing - I went to work at a three attorne firm out in the sticks where they threw pretty much every appearance at me. The first few months were gut wrenchingly awful since judges hate green lawyers. After the bite marks healed all over my head, I came to like it better. The side benefit is that you lose all fear of public speaking and stating your opinion. Anyhow, that job started at $27k and went to $30k. Not exactly sustainable, but I barely managed until my grandfather died and I had to come back to LA to help with the family business. Since I've been back, the current job pays much, much better. But it's those enormous stacks of paper I mentioned.

I don't hate other lawyers or any of that stuff. I think the law has much better people than it gets credit for. An intelligent, opinionated bunch with strong personalities. Sure, there are disagreements, but argument is argument and not personal. If you can handle being told you're wrong and then having lunch with the guy who said it, you'll fit in. That might sound awful, but it usually isn't personal or condescending. It's just disagreement, very open disagreement. That doesn't sit well with everyone, but if you don't mind that, you'll make great friends and have a great time. You'll also find that most lawyers are deeply into a hobby or some side pursuit. Usually something interesting and you'll find out about cool things you never knew existed.

If you are interested in the law, the cultural thing works for you and aren't hung up on making $400k a year, go for it. It's a great learning experience and the practice can be rewarding. My advice is to go to a state school to keep loans to a minimum. The ABA won't let you work your first year, but work the rest of the time to stay out of debt. Screw law review and the top 10%. They're fine and good, but take an enormous amount of time. Your time is better spent clerking and drinking beer with classmates. Seriously. If you drink beer with a guy, he's much more likely to hire you than someone in the top 10% he never knew because that guy was in the library 12 hours a day, aside from class. Take all the practical, trial practice, etc. courses available. Those are useful.

When you're done, go to a smaller place and do trial work. It won't give you a huge paycheck, but it's livable and you really get to practice law instead of being a more or less glorified paralegal shoveling paper for a big check.

By the way, women love the courtroom advocacy thing. I met my ex-fianceé in court. Well, it was good a first. She was a social worker, and liked that I was there every day. I'm no Johnny Cochran, but I show up on time, organized, prepared, properly dressed, and treat everyone with respect even if I disagree. Women like that.

And that's why I think I'll return to that kind of practice in a few years. Financially, I'll be in a completely different position, so I'll be able to do trial advocacy without worrying if I can afford ramen.

 

[chesebert]

I still think law professor is the better route, if you are good/smart enough to graduate top 10% at T14 and don't mind publishing few articles from time to time.

 

[skitlets]

Thanks for the personal advice Erik. Today was my last day as a college junior. That means this summer will be spent prepping for LSAT classes and getting my school applications in. I've been looking around various aspects of the law, I've joined the Pre-Law fraternity on campus to get a better feel for what it's all about. With deadlines approaching for next fall's admissions, I've realized I'm not exactly sure what I want to do. I'm burned out from school so I'm likely to just push everything back a year, take a year off after graduating and maybe work in the office of a law firm or for an attorney for a bit. Hopefully that will help guide me to what exactly I want to do. I do know I stress easily, which is why I'm questioning whether law is suited for me at all. For me, money is definitely not worth the stress of 10+ hour work days. Hell, even working 8 hours a day depresses me.

And I'm not afraid of public speaking, but the prospect of defending/prosecuting in court doesn't really pique my interest. The moral ambiguity makes me uncertain. Although, after dealing with a couple of terrible, cheap landlords in recent years... I think I'd quite enjoy dealing with rental, housing and leasing laws. There's actually a lawyer that works on campus who specifically deals with these issues for students. THAT job sounds like a dream, using knowledge to help those who are otherwise out of the loop and being taken advantage of because of it.

 

[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by skitlets /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for the personal advice Erik. Today was my last day as a college junior. That means this summer will be spent prepping for LSAT classes and getting my school applications in. I've been looking around various aspects of the law, I've joined the Pre-Law fraternity on campus to get a better feel for what it's all about. With deadlines approaching for next fall's admissions, I've realized I'm not exactly sure what I want to do. I'm burned out from school so I'm likely to just push everything back a year, take a year off after graduating and maybe work in the office of a law firm or for an attorney for a bit. Hopefully that will help guide me to what exactly I want to do. I do know I stress easily, which is why I'm questioning whether law is suited for me at all. For me, money is definitely not worth the stress of 10+ hour work days. Hell, even working 8 hours a day depresses me. And I'm not afraid of public speaking, but the prospect of defending/prosecuting in court doesn't really pique my interest. The moral ambiguity makes me uncertain. Although, after dealing with a couple of terrible, cheap landlords in recent years... I think I'd quite enjoy dealing with rental, housing and leasing laws. There's actually a lawyer that works on campus who specifically deals with these issues for students. THAT job sounds like a dream, using knowledge to help those who are otherwise out of the loop and being taken advantage of because of it.

law school tuition: 40k/yr
living expense: 15k/yr
$hit law (landlord/tenant law; personal bankruptcy; personal injury, etc) salary: 30k-40k/yr

to put things in perspective, I made much more as an entry level EE with only a 4yr degree.

the math is all wrong if you only want to do $hit law work ...unless you are independently wealthy or have wealthy parents/family members or are the beneficiary of a sizable trust

 

[skitlets]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif law school tuition: 40k/yr living expense: 15k/yr $hit law (landlord/tenant law; personal bankruptcy; personal injury, etc) salary: 30k-40k/yr to put things in perspective, I made much more as an entry level EE with only a 4yr degree. the math is all wrong if you only want to do $hit law work ...unless you are independently wealthy or have wealthy parents/family members or are the beneficiary of a sizable trust

I appreciate the realism here, as I definitely want to keep in mind the economics of it all for spending another 3 years in school. I'm from San Francisco so ideally, I'd attend Hastings, as it is a reputable school and I could live at home. I just looked up tuition costs for the 2008 school year and they end up totaling about $30,000 a year. Do you figure those salary numbers to be in a large metropolitan area, such as San Francisco / Bay Area? Or the average across the nation? I looked up paralegal salary numbers for a comparison and the median in San Francisco is about mid $40k assuming salary.com, payscale, etc. are accurate.

 

[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by skitlets /img/forum/go_quote.gif I appreciate the realism here, as I definitely want to keep in mind the economics of it all for spending another 3 years in school. I'm from San Francisco so ideally, I'd attend Hastings, as it is a reputable school and I could live at home. I just looked up tuition costs for the 2008 school year and they end up totaling about $30,000 a year. Do you figure those salary numbers to be in a large metropolitan area, such as San Francisco / Bay Area? Or the average across the nation? I looked up paralegal salary numbers for a comparison and the median in San Francisco is about mid $40k assuming salary.com, payscale, etc. are accurate.

Just remember, you will find practically no job (not even paralegal job) if you end up in the bottom 50% ...and there will always be exactly 50% of the people who are in the bottom 50% -- trying not to state the obvious here.

Good Luck!!

You can always post threads like: FT: xyz amp for your 1L course outline

that's a joke, btw..do your own work or you will never get ahead.

 

[Figo]

To anyone considering law school:

1) don't do it
2) don't do it

....

100) only do it if you want to PRACTICE LAW, real law, not dream-world law. (no "human rights" BS, no "saving the world", no "I don't like long hours", no "helping people", etc., because you won't be doing any of those things)

101) only do it if you get into a T14 school with a good scholarship, and are really really confident you can finish above median (and remember, 50% of kids are automatically below median...) HYS are the exception.

Oh, and for those looking to go into legal academia... its Yale or bust. Maybe Chicago, with top 1-3% grades. Don't bother otherwise.

 

[CDBacklash]

I have contemplated all the responses here, and have felt rather creative the past couple of days.
I intend to enroll in a primary school teaching degree; an occupation I can see myself merging with my audiophile tendancies.
I've got ideas about reward systems where I will allow young students to listen to music through some of my old gear if they work hard/achieve well.
I think this way I can not only teach them the standard things, but also foster a love for music within them (which caters to my desire to share my music with the world to an extent) and also teach them that they can enjoy music without listening loudly (as I will control the volume).

Wish me all the best. Thanks guys

 

[catachresis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Figo /img/forum/go_quote.gif (100) only do it if you want to PRACTICE LAW, real law, not dream-world law. (no "human rights" BS, no "saving the world", no "I don't like long hours", no "helping people", etc., because you won't be doing any of those things.

Errm, I'm bamboozled by your asseveration that advocacy law neither rectifies the institutional recognition of individual "rights," nor "sav[es]" anyone's cause (or dignity, or 'bacon'), nor indeed "help" anybody. I have no professional legal experience, but I have a lifelong experience of seeing how "rights"-based advocacy law has profound effects in the lives of individuals.

I've known lawyers who've helped people get fairly considered for promotions, who've assisted parents in getting schools to give their handicapped children better educations, who've forced municipal jails to removed exposed electrical wiring from jail cells and get the common toilets to stop regurgitating raw sewage. I know some who've prevented realtors and landlords from dismissing your application because they don't like the looks of you or because they know all about 'you' people. There was one lawyer who would represent you when nobody else cared to challenge your death-row conviction, because (other attorneys noted) there was no money in the job, and the system has always been imperfect, and the fact that poor people get wrongly convicted on occasion is a sad but otherwise inconsequential result of the state legal system.

And I know a few who have changed national voting laws that allowed the suburbanites in the next district over to decide who would represent your community. And there were some who altered the state funding system so that just because the 1901 state congress decided that your race was sub-human, it would not mean that your state university would get cheated when budgets were set in 2001.

Property law, arbitration law, and corporate law are all forms of "advocacy" law. As the Heritage Society will tell you, and old George Corley Wallace used to declaim, "Property right is a human right." But some folks will easily insist that property rights exist in the real world, while all the other rights are delusions of the "dream world." I'd eagerly challenge this lazy distinction.

I wouldn't eagerly recommend that every aspiring attorney consider specializing in civil rights law; it is incredibly difficult, and the rewards are not primarily monetary rewards. But the people I know who are committed to it do make profound differences in the real world.

 

[xkRoWx]

I worked with a vet for a couple of years. The job looks good on paper, working with animals and what not, but there's a lot of pressure (not to mention a lot of bites and scratches if you're not careful). I best advise you to volunteer at a local SPCA or animal clinic as a vet technician, so you'll get first hand impressions on the job.

The hardest part of the job is to euthanize an animal and deal with the family. Over the years you'll grow cold to it..

 

[roadtonowhere08]

CDBacklash: are you even serious with this thread? You are saying you want to be a lawyer for the money and a teacher for the free time. That's like saying you want to have a HUGE family for the reality TV show contract.

Have you even considered if you are even good at these professions? Most lawyers do not make a ton of money, and most teachers do not have all that much free time. Its as if you think you can roam around dipping your toes into each profession like you are at a fondue restaurant. You have to train for each and get hired (which by the way is not very easy with teaching currently), and you have to know what the hell you are talking about. Your last few posts do not instill a lot of confidence in others.

Let's put it this way: if you sound like you do now in an interview for a teaching position, you will NEVER be hired. You have to have a passion for it, and it is very obvious to the interviewing panel if you have it or not.

Here is my advice, and I would take it very seriously: take a weekend off and go somewhere where there are no distractions (like a hotel near the woods) and leave your laptop and cell phone at home. Sit down and THINK and write down all the things you like and are passionate about. Then do a PRO and CON breakdown for each. You will have a much clearer head and have a better idea of where you want to go in life.

Most people do not really think about what they want to do in life. They just do whatever, and usually end up hating 8+ hours of their day. This is you life we are talking about here. Think before you act.

 

[CDBacklash]

I didn't just pull these careers out of my arse. I was weighing up their pros and cons as they are currently the three professions I would be good at/have a desire to do.
Other than that, my passions are music and comedy. I have no idea how to get started with comedy and need to get a steady job at the very least.
Music is not really an option anymore as performance on piano and saxophone were the only things I was particularly good at and doing so now causes me intense pain in my hands after about 2 hours (and I'd need to practise about 6 hours a day to get to the level I wanted to).
I've had about 5 months off to have physiotherapy for my hands and they have not particularly improved. I've been thinking this whole time and these are the careers I have considered.
I'm entirely serious. Life just hasnt worked out as well as I'd hoped but from where I have come (unable to speak any language well about a year ago), I cannot complain.

 

[roadtonowhere08]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDBacklash /img/forum/go_quote.gif I didn't just pull these careers out of my arse. I was weighing up their pros and cons as they are currently the three professions I would be good at/have a desire to do. ... I've been thinking this whole time and these are the careers I have considered. I'm entirely serious.

Your posts scream the contrary. I have not heard one good reason why you should do any of these professions. I am not saying you will be bad at any of these professions, but have a little conviction and evidence to prove yourself worthy. Right now, you sound like some of my high school students.

PS. I am sorry to hear about your injury. That must suck.

 

[Figo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catachresis /img/forum/go_quote.gif Errm, I'm bamboozled by your asseveration that advocacy law neither rectifies the institutional recognition of individual "rights," nor "sav[es]" anyone's cause (or dignity, or 'bacon'), nor indeed "help" anybody. I have no professional legal experience, but I have a lifelong experience of seeing how "rights"-based advocacy law has profound effects in the lives of individuals.

Of course not. If you did, you would probably agree with me. (And I work in the top public defender office in the country, so I do have professional experience).

ACLU, DC public defender, LA public defender, Federal Public defender, Manhattan DA, DOJ honors (esp. antitrust), AUSA, etc. are all wonderful places to work and make a difference as an attorney.

Problem is, these offices hire from top schools (almost exclusively top 10 schools, and even then usually kids with top 10% grades.)

BIGLAW will go deeper into a class (much deeper, usually) in the top 14. Once outside of that, barring exceptional grades (top 10% or better), most are stuck with craplaw, starting at 35K or less with no benefits, and an $800 a month student loan payment (for THIRTY YEARS).

 

[CDBacklash]

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadtonowhere08 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Your posts scream the contrary. I have not heard one good reason why you should do any of these professions. I am not saying you will be bad at any of these professions, but have a little conviction and evidence to prove yourself worthy. Right now, you sound like some of my high school students. PS. I am sorry to hear about your injury. That must suck.

Do you have something against duck?
Here you're judging my character over an inept medium. Forgive me for doing the same thing, but I was under the impression that teachers should be more mature than their students (which is why I am choosing to limit myself to primary school

). Regardless, these high school students sound like nice guys

No need to feel sorry for me. It keeps life interesting.
Someone can be a clown and completely serious at the same time.