looking for a speaker setup

[biosailor]

 

Basically when speakers are tested in the lab they measure at 1m to 1.5m. That's the distance where they get the response, how loud they get with the power input (ie sensitivity), etc. Same thing with how headphones are measured with a tube that simulates an ear canal going into a mic that approximates the average distance to the ear drum (today's measuring set-ups are evn more complex, with ear lobes and canals designed to mimic the average human ear), and IEMs have to be measured inserted into the simulated canal - in other words you can't have the IEM outside your ear at the same position as the HD800 drivers and expect the IEM to sound like how it was measured. On speakers, this is why some passive speakers can get loud in nearfield applications with very little power than the sensitivity rating suggests, because you're sitting at half the distance (or less) than when it was measured; alternately, that also tend to create other issues in the response, or at least, it sounds different from 0.5m than what it sounds like as far as the manufacturer was concerned when they did the testing at 1.0m. In your case you'll sit farther away, so be prepared to move your seats closer or have a some reserve power, unless what you'll buy is a speaker that likely was measured from farther out as well, like gigantic tower speakers. If you sat 1m away from a Focal Grande Utopia for example the main problem you'll face is how each transducer on it has a different distance to your head, whereas sitting farther out minimizes the path-length differentials, meaning all the sounds meld together propery since you hear them all at the same time. Even a microsecond delay can screw that up.

Thanks, ProtegeManiac, for the elaborate explanation! I see that I have to rethink the sitting distance to the speakers. In other words: does a listener have to sit at the distance where the properties of the speaker were measured? Is this distance given in the specs when you buy speakers? It would also mean that the sitting position is always fixed in relation to the speakers? So if during measurements the distance is more or less kept constant, where does amp power come into play. Does it something have to do with the material from which the speakers are built? Sorry for so many questions but for a newbie trying to buy his first speakers, I start to realise that speaker science is complicated!

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
Is this distance given in the specs when you buy speakers?

 
Sometimes the sensitivity can be rated "@1m" or something like that.
 

 
In other words: does a listener have to sit at the distance where the properties of the speaker were measured?
It would also mean that the sitting position is always fixed in relation to the speakers? 

 
NO, not to the exact distance - room modes and proper toe-in angles would still affect the sound more. My point only was that, at 3m, that's considerably farther from how far those speakers were measured, which means that the input/amplification signal that got them for example 89dB at 1mW, 1m distance could be at 86dB at 3m. Basically, at minimum, your choice of amplifier needs to account for that. Some people might use them as nearfield speakers with an 8wpc T-Amp and they say there's nothing wrong with the bass, but you use the same amp and sit 3m away, and you have to crank it up more, and on top of distortion and a possible variance in response, it won't sound the same from your seat 3m away. At between 1m to 2m there being any audible differences is likely.
 
On the flipside, the reason why you shouldn't totally rely on such measurements is that smaller towers are also measured at 1m, usually, and if you sat at 1m, you're too close. Either the tower is too close and unlike monitors you can't raise them to ear level, or it's a 3-way or more set-up and at 1m the distance from the tweeter and the midwoofer and the bass driver to your head can have considerable differences.
 

 
So if during measurements the distance is more or less kept constant, where does amp power come into play.

 
The farther you sit the lower the volume. 2dB might not sound like much, but if you get in the math of all this, it's somewhere along the lines of doubling the current power input just to get another 3dB every time, and the question is whether the amp will pile on distortion if not start clipping.
 
To make it clear I'm not saying get a gigantic BAT amplifier or something like that, only that if you plan on sitting 3m away, do not underestimate the power needed by the speakers as you'll be sitting farther.
 
 
 

  Does it something have to do with the material from which the speakers are built?

 
Indirectly but you can't just look at the list of materials and be able to tell all of this. You need to look at the actual speaker specs. Dispersion pattern is another thing - you have to experiment in your own room as to how much toe-in you need to put the speakers on.

 

[biosailor]

   
Sometimes the sensitivity can be rated "@1m" or something like that.
 
NO, not to the exact distance - room modes and proper toe-in angles would still affect the sound more. My point only was that, at 3m, that's considerably farther from how far those speakers were measured, which means that the input/amplification signal that got them for example 89dB at 1mW, 1m distance could be at 86dB at 3m. Basically, at minimum, your choice of amplifier needs to account for that. Some people might use them as nearfield speakers with an 8wpc T-Amp and they say there's nothing wrong with the bass, but you use the same amp and sit 3m away, and you have to crank it up more, and on top of distortion and a possible variance in response, it won't sound the same from your seat 3m away. At between 1m to 2m there being any audible differences is likely.
 
On the flipside, the reason why you shouldn't totally rely on such measurements is that smaller towers are also measured at 1m, usually, and if you sat at 1m, you're too close. Either the tower is too close and unlike monitors you can't raise them to ear level, or it's a 3-way or more set-up and at 1m the distance from the tweeter and the midwoofer and the bass driver to your head can have considerable differences.
 
 
The farther you sit the lower the volume. 2dB might not sound like much, but if you get in the math of all this, it's somewhere along the lines of doubling the current power input just to get another 3dB every time, and the question is whether the amp will pile on distortion if not start clipping.
 
To make it clear I'm not saying get a gigantic BAT amplifier or something like that, only that if you plan on sitting 3m away, do not underestimate the power needed by the speakers as you'll be sitting farther.
 
 
 
 
Indirectly but you can't just look at the list of materials and be able to tell all of this. You need to look at the actual speaker specs. Dispersion pattern is another thing - you have to experiment in your own room as to how much toe-in you need to put the speakers on.

OK, 3m away from the loudspeakers was maybe a bit silly, as we live in a house with rather smallish living-/diningroom. I just couldn't imagine sitting this close to them, but admittedly, given the dimensions of the rooms, we'll never be 3 metres away. With regards to speaker towers, just because of the dimensions of the rooms, we'll rely on bookshelf speakers.
 
Again, I do not plan on buying high-power amps, something in the range of 30-50 watts should be enough.
 
I had a demo of the KEF LS50 this weekend at one of the local hi-fi dealer. I was really amazed how punchy and clean the speakers sounded, and yes, I sat about 2 metres from the speakers. Besides being punchy, the sound from the LS50 was nice, crisp and airy. The dealer also warned me that the LS50 is a bit picky with the source. So naturally, I keep on looking around and take my time to decide on a pair of speakers.
 
Thanks a lot for your input!

 

[cel4145]

The dealer also warned me that the LS50 is a bit picky with the source.

A lot of speakerphiles don't buy into that idea. Just be aware that dealers will do that to try to sell you different/more expensive amplification.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by biosailor /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

Again, I do not plan on buying high-power amps, something in the range of 30-50 watts should be enough

 

I never did say "buy a gigantic monobloc with 500watts!!!" or anything to that effect, only that you don't underestimate the power requirements then going with an 8wpc to 15wpc T-amp, primarily because when you do use these at that rated power chances are distortion's already piling on or they might be starting to clip. Basically, make sure you can get a very clean 20wpc, minimum if you will listen at 3m away, but can deliver more power before it really piles on the distortion. 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by biosailor /img/forum/go_quote.gif

OK, 3m away from the loudspeakers was maybe a bit silly, as we live in a house with rather smallish living-/diningroom. I just couldn't imagine sitting this close to them, but admittedly, given the dimensions of the rooms, we'll never be 3 metres away. 

 

If you're going to be 1.5m to 2.0m away then as long as you have an 89dB or higher sensitivity on the speakers then if you can get a clean 15wpc that's going to be enough.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by biosailor /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

With regards to speaker towers, just because of the dimensions of the rooms, we'll rely on bookshelf speakers.

 

That depends though - are they actually going to go on a shelf? Because otherwise when you account for the size of the standmount speakers with the stands, you might as well have gone with a 2-way tower if 1) you won't be sitting too close and 2) you can have the tweeter at least or preferably a point between the two drivers at the same height as your ears (if you're sitting 2m away at least 3-way towers are an option). Stands sometimes aren't high enough anyway and will be helped by an elevated platform, much like a short tower, but the latter has a little advantage in the bass extension due to the larger cabinet (just note that depending on the quality of the drivers and the soundness of the design this can also be a problem, ie, it might just make the bass flabby).

 

I'm more likely to still get standmounts myself, but more because the kinds of speakers I like go from 2-way standmounts to 3-way with multiple bass driver towers up the model range. Depending on what you get a 2-way (or if usable in your room, a 3-way) tower might be cheaper than buying decent stands.

 

 

 

 

[theveterans]

Since I only have a small room, I use my Yamaha HS5 speakers (no subwoofer) and when paired with Bifrost Multibit and Asgard 2, I'm close to reaching audio nirvana.

 

[biosailor]

 

 

That depends though - are they actually going to go on a shelf? Because otherwise when you account for the size of the standmount speakers with the stands, you might as well have gone with a 2-way tower if 1) you won't be sitting too close and 2) you can have the tweeter at least or preferably a point between the two drivers at the same height as your ears (if you're sitting 2m away at least 3-way towers are an option). Stands sometimes aren't high enough anyway and will be helped by an elevated platform, much like a short tower, but the latter has a little advantage in the bass extension due to the larger cabinet (just note that depending on the quality of the drivers and the soundness of the design this can also be a problem, ie, it might just make the bass flabby).

 

I'm more likely to still get standmounts myself, but more because the kinds of speakers I like go from 2-way standmounts to 3-way with multiple bass driver towers up the model range. Depending on what you get a 2-way (or if usable in your room, a 3-way) tower might be cheaper than buying decent stands.

 

 

 

OK, thanks, will also look into the speaker towers!

 

[biosailor]

  Since I only have a small room, I use my Yamaha HS5 speakers (no subwoofer) and when paired with Bifrost Multibit and Asgard 2, I'm close to reaching audio nirvana.

I thought the Asgard 2 is a headphone amp only! I'm surprised to see that it drives speakers at all. Interesting!

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  I thought the Asgard 2 is a headphone amp only! I'm surprised to see that it drives speakers at all. Interesting!

 
It's not "driving" the speakers as the HS5 has its own amplifiers built into each cabinet. The Asgard just sends out a signal and controls the output level via its preamp output in the rear. You're not going to drive passive speakers with it, precisely the reason why it doesn't have any speaker binding posts.

 

[theveterans]

Since HS5 only have amp gain settings, I control the volume using Asgard 2 as a preamp

 

[biosailor]

Since HS5 only have amp gain settings, I control the volume using Asgard 2 as a preamp

That's exactly the other route I might take. I have a GSX MK2, with a preamp out that I could use to drive powered speakers. I read a review the other day of Dynaudio's Xeo 2. This  seems to be a really good speaker if one believes the raving reviews (http://www.cnet.com/news/at-last-a-wireless-speaker-for-the-most-discerning-audiophiles/#ftag=rss.audiophiliac.ftag). I'll have a listen at one of the local vendors.